Slalom Struture - The structure of doemstic competition

[Flipper]

Thanks Craig. Perhaps the most considered, balanced contribution to the debate. 100% agree with these nuggets:

If we want to grow the sport why restrict opportunities to participate?
Retain all current events from Division 1 – 4, look for opportunities to enhance and expand.
Division 2 events are certainly a step up and should involve Regional collaboration; I believe that we could still keep as high a number of events as possible. Much will be down to the Organiser to determine if an event is viable.
Have as many Division 1 events as organisers are willing to propose, retain a strong regional element in their distribution.
BCU Slalom (in association with National Organisations) to identify a sub series of key events at Premier sites (e.g. Grandtully; HPP; Tryweryn etc.) to host combined Div 1 and national style events
Our strategic objective should be for growth and development not restrictions on practises and opportunities.
Our strategy should be based on customer or client focus, not organisation and pyramid structures.

Would you like to trundle down here and lead the sport's development in the south ????
Pete "Flipper" B

[Nick Penfold]

I think Craig's contribution is pretty sound, and I agree that the strategy document seems to be written from an organiser viewpoint when it should start from the paddler. Which is why I wanted to know why paddlers paddle - see http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/info/reasons_to_race.htm

But there is an issue which I think was behind the stance of the strategy document, and that's resources: delivering quality Div 1 races means timing, judges and good water. A "series within a series" means dividing Div 1 into races that matter and races that don't matter - not a good plan.

I'm afraid you also can't square the circle of limiting Prem to 9 events, using all the Prem-quality sites, and having doubles at distant sites.

By the way, earlier contributions seem to demand a defence of the divisions system. It seems to me that:
- It's an excellent development vehicle. It offers a gentle introduction, the opportunity to win races early and steady development.
- It offers a graduation of courses and matches the paddlers to them in a way no other system I know of could.
- It motivates through rewards, rankings, wins and promotion at every level.
- It gives the better paddlers events protected from wally entrants who would obstruct the course and need constant rescuing.
- It allows organisers to set challenging courses, in the knowledge that competitors can cope, and protected from parent or paddler bitching that "it's too hard".

Also, we know how it works and how it can be tuned to best effect. Anything else is a pig in a poke.

As to opening up higher-level races to developing paddlers: I think allowing them to take a guest part in Prem and Div 1 races early, on the recommendation of their coaches, might make a lot of sense. Let's see a thought-through proposal.

[Munchkin]

Have as many Division 1 events as organisers are willing to propose, retain a strong regional element in their distribution.

This is where I disagree, I think at Division 1 we should have quality (as in water and difficulty) rather than quanity.

It should be seen as a division that is a proper step up from 2-4 (where quantity is important) and not far behind Prem. If this means that some regions are not able to hold events because they do not have the water quality then so be it, the line needs to be drawn somewhere (and I think that line is between 1 and 2, not P and 1, so disagree with Craig as I think Division 2 should be and is the transition division).

People have already commented that the standard of water at events has gone down over the years and suspect that it may have something to do with people holding the view expressed in the past few posts.

People also seem to have forgotten that us paddlers do have an opportunity to paddle in higher division events, by putting in judges/ officials entries. I did this as a Div 2 aspiring to be in Div 1 and still do it as a Div 1 with no intention of ever getting into Prem (well, in a K1 anyway!). There are also open events at places like Matlock and Washburn if you don't fancy officiating.

[DavidDickson]

I paddled in the mid 80's as a junior and then had a 20 year break from the sport before returning as a paddler, parent of paddler, coach, race organiser etc.

The sport has changed in many ways but one of the main changes I recognise is in the range and depth of participants. I have a 1985 yearbook and her are some ranking list comparisons with last year:-

1984 Prem K1 Men 59 ranked 2009 58
1984 Div 1 K1 Men 190 ranked 2009 116
1984 Div 2 K1 Men 400 approx ranked 2009 170
1984 Div 3 K1 Men 700 approx ranked 2009 283

Also, of the 59 paddlers ranked in Prem at the beginning of 1984 only 3 were J18 (5%). At the moment we have 21 J18’s out of 58 in Prem (36%).

So we have lost a lot of participants at the Div 2/3 level but also the majority of paddlers are now Juniors especially in Div2/3.

So for many reasons the sport has evolved into a primarily junior sport. There are probably loads of reasons for this which could be discussed at length and there are probably initiatives that could be developed to retain senior paddlers but at the moment we have a junior sport and I believe it is better setup than ever to coach and develop young paddlers. This is proven at GB selection races where the top juniors and pushing the top seniors for senior team places.

However, I do agree, it is possible to gain promotion to Div 2 by only ever competing at flat water courses and then by carefully selecting Div2 races gain promotion to Div 1 but this will only happen if the paddler chooses this route or is guided this way by a coach. The result is that they will find themselves struggling to cope at Div 1 events. It is really important that they simultaneously develop their white water slalom skills while gaining race experience.

I don’t think we should be purely looking to the competition calendar to provide opportunities to develop these skills. Realistically, how much quality training can you get at a Div 2/3 event during open practice – it’s normally carnage !

I think as coaches we should be looking to develop our paddlers away from race weekends with suitable training days and river trips. These can provide more quality training opportunities and more fun for participants. Paddlers will then have the skills to cope with the courses set at race weekends.

[Seedy Paddler]

Should I clarify a couple of points:

1/ If the stance behind the document is resource planning then this should be the centre point of the document and not a subliminal message. I agree that there are issues - however compare and contrast with current SCA strategy - aware of issues in attracting section judges and timing team to Grandtully they are actively seeking to encourage local paddlers to undertake Gate Judges Exams and consider volunteering to be Section Judges. Please consider which strategy is more liable to be sustainable and provide continued growth within the sport?

2/ I didn't attempt to square circles, rather I can see a logic in the number of events but this must be bourne out be the viability and the previously voiced concerns on travelling long distances for single events. Hence it may be a valid "target" in terms of provision of an exclusive series, but it needs other considerations.

3/ I don't think it need make some races more valid than others merely that single events paired with Pan-Celtic are popular. Other sites may then be run as doubles. The objective is to provide a wide range of attractive events to promote participation and development with high value delivery to the participants.

Munchkin - if and when we re-instate Div 5 I may agree with you but otherwise the standard and results from Division 1 in recent years is well short of an elite performance division.

Some other observations
Current Premier (K1M) participation is 20% down on the end of last season.
Of the current Premier K1M participants only 50% have attended all events
Participation (P K1M) levels are around the 70% level in early events (included the lead up to selection) but dropped to 56% at Cardiff

Such levels of participation would dispute the belief that paddlers are being promoted too quickly and are liable to dilute the elite aspects of Premier Division.

There has never been an issue that prevented paddlers paddling up a Division, enter as a Judge. I was certainly racing on courses at Tully, Netherton Bridge and the Awe long before I was ranked in the appropriate divisions. In fact I preffered them and would arrange weekends off (I had Saturday jobs and paper rounds) to go to those events in prefference to taking time off to go to Novice events. But in order to attract that we need a wide geographical distribution. I may make the effort to drive to Tullly (~2 hours each way) and spend time on the bank and take a judges run. Less likely to consider the ~ 8 hours each way to HPP far less the ~10 hours each way for Cardiff/ Broxbourne/ Shepperton. (Actually I did the Shepperton once before as a Uni student for a Div 2 and collection of new trailer and boats). Water at Shepperton is easily capable of providing a testing Division 1 course, probably more testing than an August Tully summer level.....

[Canadian Paddler]

Amazing, I am normally reacting to posts quickly and trying to impose my views, but is has been PAGES since I have been on here. SO a mammoth post sorry for the length.
THESE ARE PERSONAL VIEWS

We few, we willing few (count the posters against the number of replies to Nicks questionnaire) seem to be polarising around whether div 1 is regional or not.

Let’s recap from the document:
Div 4 as many as we can get, let’s get people into the sport.
Div 3, a bit of separation but then lots to retain people in the sport, not regional (or super region) just trying to separate them enough that events remain viable.
Div 2, 'super regional', with the aim of one a weekend somewhere in the country, nothing to stop having a div 2, a training camp, then another div 2, just suggest not too many too close too often. The paper actually suggests MORE div 2 events, to be held on better water. (DECLARATION OF INTEREST I do my imprecise drifting in Div 2 and want it to be on bigger water)
Probably a good time to eat yet more humble pie. I got flamed here a year or so ago by describing those of us who (at that time) were in div 1 for the completion without hope, aim or expectation of prem as ‘div 1 dossers’, a term of affection form my early days (when it was div 2 dossers). Not that they dossed about, just that they were happy competing at that level and did so very well, balancing this against work, home and other commitments To avoid that a used the phrase older paddlers. I know that some who fall into this category are 18, I now have a plethora of better phrases to describe this group of paddlers.
There is a disagreement on is division 1 a national division, or a regional one. I obviously believe it is national rather than regional. Why not have as many as we can, because it interferes with our ability to run LOTS of div 3/4 events. Several organisers have said that they cannot/will not schedule a div 3/4 event against a div 1 or prem. So if we want lots of access to div 3/4 events we need lots of weekends without div 1/prem events. If national we should be trying to balance accessibility with water standard, if regional, then we still want some aim for the standard we should be competing on.

Division 1 – transition point with strong developers seeking to move up, some participants that wish to maintain a strong personal challenge and some performers (particularly Junior and Veteran).

My argument is that this is also a transition to national events.
It may be a reflection of the level that people here paddle at, but as far as I can recall, the only suggestion for continuity of water has been ‘let them do div 1/2 events’ (OK not that harsh but…) The paper is suggesting a return towards the days that Andya referred to with Serpents Tail 2, Linton Locks 2. This might even help get a few play boaters to take slalom seriously, after all if you take a short boat down Tryweryn are you really interested in direct entry to most div 2 water?

One aspect of paddlers being promoted too quickly is that they STOP paddling, for either the rest of the season if they notice quickly enough, or take a season out and MAY reapply for status. I can provide examples of both of these and I am sure you know some. So low participation may be an indication of too fast promotion, or of other commitments or of the recession reducing spending, not sure it is a clear argument for any of them.
Just posted two other threads to try to keep this one on track, and to gather information
How do we grow the sport getting ideas about how we grow the sport, what do we want from it and how we can keep it going AND
To rank or not to rank to deabte open entry or various rankings

Feel free to rant and rave about you favourites!

[andya]

One aspect of paddlers being promoted too quickly is that they STOP paddling

I just have to pull you up on that Colin and say ... huh? I can't see that at all.

What I see is youngsters giving up slalom, because beyond one slalom a year, there is nowhere else for them to compete under 3 hours drive. IF they get to div 2, next year it will be closer to 4 hours ...

How to grow slalom? Simple ... we need more local slaloms ... (at all levels).

PS - Linton was a D3 wasn't it ???

[Fup Duck]

I'd totally agree with that

[Carlr]

If my memory serves me right (being as Colin refers to as an Older Paddler) even back in the 70s 80s and 90s we always had to tavel far and wide to paddle on good water at races, ok we had the likes of Hambledon and Shepps (being a Southerner) but i always wanted to race on proper rivers with good water and that meant driving to North Wales or Yorkshire and Scotland. which is the nature of the sport, The main problem i see as an organiser of a Div 3/4 slalom is you do not know how many entries you are going to get and there is still a financial outlay for any club to make. When planning to run an event you choose your weekend but you do not know if it will clash with another race of the same division. I agree we need more lower division races but too many will see lower numbers enter as people will have more choice to pick and choose events so a carefull balance is required. Instead of people just moaning about slalom dying off in the South get out there and organise an event and do some thing positive. Now ive had my say ill sit back and await the flack.

[Anne]

Personal thoughts....

no one is disputing the need for more accessable events on suitable water at div 2 and below, but I can't really understand why anyone in div 1 would want to race on water not up to standard just because it is near, - such an event would not attract anyone from any distance I am sure! - I would love to know where you would propose to run a div one in the SW!!

Out of interest - how many of those people taking part int this discussion are actually in Div 1 - I know Munchkin is but don't know about anyone else! Also interesting only 26 people involved in the discussion - how many paddlers out there??

Just looked through some old year books to get an idea of the gradual increase -I know when my 2 were in Div 1 there were only far less and we had teams on Saturday as well which were very competative, in 95 there were 11, 1000 - 12 and 2005 - 14 so a steady rise.

Well said Carl!!!

[Canadian Paddler]

Andy
I know it is strange for the atheletic fit paddlers that we are (or is that were) BUT

Promoted too fast, do not like the water, so vote with feet and stop paddling.

Nearing promotion, and do not like the water at the next level, stop paddling or find events where you believe you will not get many points, effectivly stop for the rest of the season. I have been told this by several people, some came back to paddling some did not.

I remeber Linton as a fun 2/3, the sort that Carl and I used to drive miles to go to. Yes I know about Southerne Slalom, started St Albans, Then Bristol Uni then Windsor befroe coming 'up north' to Peterborough, well it is north of Watford, but still closer to France than to Seedy!

[Fup Duck]

Carl has a point there were a lot of people being nostalgic on the other thread about southern slalom but the point was could any of them be revived or was anyone willing to take steps towards this

[Dee]

but I can't really understand why anyone in div 1 would want to race on water not up to standard

I would argue and others have said the same that Shepperton is up to standard. It is certainly as someone else pointed out harder than a boat-scraper Tully in August and we've been to many div 1s where the water wasn't a patch on Sheppy.

To answer your question - no I'm not in div 1, but my son is, and he is very keen to keep a spread of div 1s and increase the opportunities to race.

I could as easily ask the question (tongue in cheek) how many of the committee are in div 1 :;):

[oldschool]

I don't mind admiting that I'm a div 1 paddler! As i'm sure i said in one post im ex prem and a bit fat, but i do still love my canoeing now i've got back into it!!

[Username]

I'm in Div 1, and have been for 3 years (from my first season slalom paddling), although I won't be next year as (for many of the reasons others have mentioned, namely a) work, b) polo and c) excessive travelling distances) I've only managed 1 race this year. I'm young-ish (25) but by no means a 'performer' - I enjoy racing and paddling interesting water (which doesn't necessarily mean 'hard' water, as I'd infinitely rather paddle the lovely, beautiful, interesting Llandysul than a concrete ditch).

I too am puzzled by the assertion that Shepperton does not have Div 1 quality water, as a number of people refused to race there because of it being too hard (and having quality safety cover has always been important there!).

This message board is not particularly widely used (certainly note in comparison to the rec. equivalent, UKRGB) so I suspect that's why there hasn't been much input. Furthermore, those who it does not affect - those who already live near an apparently 'quality' site (ie pumped/dam release!) are less likely to post.