Our sport is a mess

[Simon W]

Simon, I fear a lot of your comments on this thread and related stem from theory.

I can understand why you think that, but I can assure you that they stem from direct comments from people I paddle with regularly as well as others I speak to on the river. A few in particular comment about a certain amount of self-important attitude they perceive at places like Tryweryn. As well as the whole pushy parent thing, which has put them off the thought of their own kids taking it up. Like I said, rightly or wrongly, but certainly not theory. And I have directly encountered the disinterest myself when I first suggested to my club about slalom at the Yat again a year or so back.

While I can understand you mentioning my lack of entering a race as a reason why you think much of what I have said is theory, the fact remains that people who are at a slalom event are already converted so to speak. They are not the outsiders looking in with all the perceptions (again rightly or wrongly) that that brings.

When faced with the choice of getting a plastic freestyle boat that can be used in any safe weir, playhole, and even river runs, that they can park up and play for an hour or so, compared with beginners slalom, which do you think is more appealing to the younger generation?

And that right there is another issue. Many perceive slalom to be boring. A comment from a close friend of mine was effectively "Why would I want to travel all the way to a slalom competing on grade 1/2 water with only a couple of runs in the day when I could go to Tryweryn or a totally natural river and have a blast all day at my leisure on G3/4 water?"

He's right. If the rivers are running, I certainly wouldn't want to be competing in a lower ranked 3/4 slalom on effectively flat water, especially when all the cost of fuel to do it is all factored in.

There is one simple fact in all of this. Slalom is a minority discipline, despite being an Olympic sport. Either all the reasons why people aren't interested in it can be tackled head on and honestly, or a load of Lottery funding etc can be found and thrown into a black hole. You need to take a solid look at why extreme creek races are becoming so popular, and the appeal of the way they sometimes mix slalom aspects into them. One reason races like the Moriston race work, and races such as Boater X at Tryweryn, and even the Addidas Sickline and Teva Games is because they are relatively informal and very importantly anyone can enter. One of my friends is doing just that for the Sickline. He's not a known paddler, but he's a good one and he entered it with no silly rules preventing him from doing so. None of this ranking palava.

The way you will rescue slalom is to make it appealing to people, exciting, and easy to access. That's all there is to it. Don't bother so much with the official CE/BCU stuff. If someone says they are a regular paddler on the type of water the event is on, let them enter. I know there are slalom events that you can go into and prove you can go on certain grades of water and enter a higher division rather than working through 3/4, but this is all still red tape, and only a few events allow this.

Run a separate easy to access series. Ditch the rankings and make it easier for anybody to enter, hold the competitions on interesting water, allow them to enter in a plastic boat of their choice. If you prefer to keep it formal with all the rankings and the requirement of a proper slalom boat in order to be allowed to paddle on challenging white water then be prepared for the sport to gradually decline. That's the bottom line IMHO and I know I won't be popular for saying so!

[Jerry Tracey]

Simon, in my opinion you have things somewhat out of proportion and have perhaps been influenced by the hype surrounding the sale of large lumps of plastic. Freestyle, as opposed to informal playboating, seems to have all but disappeared in the UK and anyone taking it up will find it very hard to actually find any events to enter. Extreme races have sparked interest recently, but there only appear to be two or three each year, with a relatively small number of actual participants. On the other hand, on any summer weekend there are two and sometimes three slaloms taking place place in different parts of the country, often with 100+ entrants in each. Recently, several div.1 events seem to have been oversubscribed against a limit of 200.
The div.3/4 entry route is intended for newcomers to paddling, especially youngsters. There is a well established route of div.2 entry for experienced white-water paddlers. This allows a start on reasonably good water, but with fairly easy courses and competition on a relatively social level. There is also unlimited practice time at this level, so full weekends of paddling are available, especially at double events. This alternative option should, perhaps, be much better publicised to recreational paddlers.
I do, however, regret the loss of the strong link that we used to have between slalom and river-running / expedition paddling. Slalom could stil provide good preparation for this, due to its emphasis on water reading, tight breakouts and sharp crosses, etc.

Good paddling & clean waves!
Jerry.

[davebrads]

I think Simon makes some valid points and we shouldn't dismiss them so easily.

One thing that I would disagree with though is his statement that it is difficult to get people interested in slalom. It certainly is not my experience. Five (or is it six?) years ago I started the Marlins slalom section at Manchester Canoe Club. Although MCC had a strong history of slalom, it had declined in the club to the point where there were three of us training in winter evenings, despite the fact that we had better facilities than most clubs with permanent gates and floodlights. Personally I had become disenchanted with coaching beginners; 95% of whom we would not see following the first introduction course, and even less became long term members of the club. As a result the club was shrinking fast, and there was no fresh blood coming in to run the club.

I got together with a couple of other coaches in the club and we started a regular session aimed at 8-14 year olds. We had immediate interest from parents within the club, many of whom were new to the club, so much so we didn't have to advertise elsewhere. After all that is what parents want for their children - something that is regular and dependable that they can take their children to. And most of the kids loved it, our drop-out rate was certainly much lower than in the recreational side of the sport, say 50% didn't go past the first year. It may be easier to interest people in playing for a few hours on the Trweryn in place of 2 x 2minute slalom runs, but that is not the option that many clubs can offer, the choice is between pottering about in an unresponsive plastic tub on flat(tish) water learning "skills" to earn star awards, or training on gates with a much higher skill level, and a competitive aspect to maintain interest.

At the end of the day the racing is only part of the sport. We spend far more time training than racing, and that training can be made equally, if not more, interesting than bimbling down the Tryweryn a couple of times at a weekend.

Once the kids were interested, the parents got more involved. Several started training and racing themselves, and even those that didn't became far more involved in the club, with some taking up recreational coaching and several joining the committee. All of sudden MCC became much a more vibrant and exciting club to be a member of. And even the recreational side has expanded, it would be difficult to make a correlation between this and the expansion of the slalom side of the club, but it certainly has happened.

[Simon W]

the choice is between pottering about in an unresponsive plastic tub on flat(tish) water learning "skills" to earn star awards, or training on gates with a much higher skill level, and a competitive aspect to maintain interest.

At the end of the day the racing is only part of the sport. We spend far more time training than racing, and that training can be made equally, if not more, interesting than bimbling down the Tryweryn a couple of times at a weekend.

Personally I agree with this, though many of the things I have stated in my previous replies are the opinions and perceptions of others I have come across, not my own personal ones. One reason I wanted to push my club to do some slalom was precisely because I could see the benefits that slalom can offer. And this is what I think the people from the club who have taken the time to come down to Symonds Yat on a Tuesday are now finding.

Extreme races have sparked interest recently, but there only appear to be two or three each year, with a relatively small number of actual participants.

There are a fair number each year, particularly in the US. Worldwide the known ones are the Teva Games, Sickline, Devils Extreme, The Green Narrows Race, White Water Grand Prix and so on. There are many others though and there is a full series held throughout the year. They have not only sparked interest but they are growing, fast. Entry numbers are capped. They generally get far more people applying to enter than there are places available, including the Moriston Race in Scotland which was held recently. So you can't judge the popularity by the numbers who have entered since many more were turned down due to all the places being taken.

Such races are harder to hold due to the water requirements and types of rivers. However the participants generally see them being more relevant to the type of paddling that they do, and they don't need a separate boat from the one they normally paddle in order to be competitive.

This alternative option should, perhaps, be much better publicised to recreational paddlers.

It should. Like I said, your main issue is in making it attractive to people to get involved. You could use the fact that paddlers like Mike Dawson are creek boaters, and slalomers like Vavrinec Hradilek and Anton Lippek, are now competing in the steep creek championship races.

[davebrads]

Further to my post above, I chose to coach juniors because I decided that there was little point in promoting slalom to the recreational paddler. For this reason I don't believe that we need to make races more accessible to casual racers, all you are going to get is a minority of recreational paddlers having a go, the majority of whom will not take up the sport anyway. Slalom is a competitive sport, and like most other competitive sports the majority of participants will be juniors, most of whom give up the sport when they go out to work and start families (perhaps returning later when their children start racing). There is no point therefore in trying to promote the sport to the occasional weekend paddler, by definition they will not be interested in making the commitment that a competitive sport requires.

The problem is not the accessibility of races (apart from the fact that there are large areas of the country that don't have races at all), but access to training facilities and coaches. The headline schemes such as LV and HPP are all very well and good, but they have been introduced at disparately large expense for the benefit of a tiny number of paddlers, and introduces a sense of unfairness in the sport that can only be divisive and is likely to discourage more youngsters from racing than are gained through the schemes. The money would be far better spent supporting volunteer coaches at low-cost training venues who will then be able to deliver training for a far larger number of paddlers.

[BaldockBabe]

Further to my post above, I chose to coach juniors because I decided that there was little point in promoting slalom to the recreational paddler.

I disagree to some extent with this comment, but in other ways I can see where you are comming from.

Like Simon I started at a club with mainly white water and polo players, there were only 3 slalomists in the club. For the time I was chair I tried to promote slalom as a way of improving your ww skills. Even though the club was technically adults only by getting the parents interested I was able to get their children involved in slalom and for a while the club participation in slalom increased both with adults and juniors. The issues that I saw whilst doing this (and, given I have only been involved in slalom for 7 years, whilst I was going through the process) were:

Adults

The slalom world at all levels is only concerned about the juniors. everything is geared towards getting juniors into the sport and once in, getting them to elite level. There is no training available for adults, no support for adults and rarely any incentive for adults (i.e prizes). We forget that adults can offer the sport a HUGE amount for a SMALL investment and that perhaps if we want to increase participation we need to look at how we can engage adults as well as the children. There are many family groups I can think of where the parents are/ were white water paddlers and they have very successful children now involved in slalom e.g. Atkinsons/ Alins.

Adults DRIVE children to events, Adults can COACH children, Adults can ENCOURRAGE children, hey, Adults also PAY for children.

So how do we engage the adults:

1. For those who want to participate, give them the chance to benefit from coaching too. Even if this is once a week in one of the mega regions, alongside the juniors.

2. For those that want to coach, introduce a coaching scheme that works. None of this jumping through the UKCC hoops (I gave up as it was too costly and time consuming and I did not want (nor need) to paddle an open canoe!). I understand Wales and Scotland now have easier to access slalom coaching qualifications (but perhaps someone from there can confirm).

3. Look at the demotions systems (especially around 1/2 and 2/3). Often the people that bounce up and down between the divisions are seniors/ masters. These are the people that are less likely to be able to train and are less likely to be quick enough to remain in the higher division but are more likely to prefer the water in that division. Is it really worth demoting them to the lower division just to make the numbers look right if it means potentially alienating them from the sport as they have to battle to get back to the water they prefer?

Children

With the children there were other issues I found.

1. Coaching - it is all fair and good for those who got to Div 1 and were then picked up by a development squad but a) the numbers on the squad are limited for obvious reasons, b) there is a perception that selection for the squads are on a "who you know basis", and c) this does not happen for those at a lower level. If you do not have a strong slalom club to get coaching from you can quickly lose interest as you cannot see a way of improving, nor can you forge friendship groups with the people you train with. Remember children are easily led by their peers, if their peers are not into slalom they are not going to hang around unless they find other peers that are. We therefore need to be more inclusive.

2. Cost - slalom is expensive. There is no getting around that. We need to have better access to kit for the lower divisions. I know GB canoeing has kit and some clubs have kit that can be used at their events, but we need to find ways of promoting this availability.

Other issues

It is not just participation that is an issue, there is also a MAJOR issue with having a sense of ownership within the sport, paricularly (I am sad to say) in England.

It is fantastic in Wales and Scotland that when there is a tannoy asking all x paddlers to assist with the course change/ taking down that the paddlers all went off and helped. Where there were a shortage of judges, the Welsh paddlers all had to contribute. Where there are a shortage of assistants in control the Scottish parents jump in to assist. Hey, even where the Pan Celtic was held in England the Welsh, Irish and Scottish all filled in their judging slots with no complaint (to me anyway). From an organisers point of view (with the Pan Celtic) the Welsh, Irish and Scots all had confirmed teams entering long before the English as the English paddlers did not confirm if they were paddling or not.

England is a whole different matter. There are far more English paddlers than there are from the other nations and yet I had to bring in non-slalomists to provide safety at the English event and Mark spent more time on the tannoy asking for English paddlers/ parents to judge than he could doing anything else. At one point Dave Royal and I (who were trying to run the event) ended up judging just so the event could keep going). It is a shambles and to be honest a disgrace that (save for the same faces time and time again) that there are so many people that are willing to take, take, take and not give back.

Somehow we need to forge a sense of ownership in England in the same way as the other home nations have, otherwise we won't need to have discussions on paddler numbers as the volunteers that are left doing everything will abandon ship and there will be no events for the paddlers to attend.

[Neil H]

Crikey this has grown a bit and there is a lot of common sense and opinion in there, not least from Dave, who should be applauded for putting it out there, and from John. A quick read through throws up some thoughts for me but I don't have time to voice them now.
It would be good if more people posted here.

[Phil Stevo]

Dave Brads is right in saying the club structure is vital to the progress of our sport. Having more clubs with training facilities and coaches is the only sustainable way to develop canoe slalom. In England the main problem I see is with funding. The major lottery funding that comes into the sport goes directly into GB Canoeing for its core central programmes based at HPP and Lee Valley and more recently from Sport England into GB Canoeing for the Super Regions, Academies, Club Coach Initiatives.

I really do like the concept of Club, Academy, Super Region, England, and GB Team structure. As this gives a defined pathway with easily recognisable steps for the progression of youngsters that are striving to make the top in the sport. One of the problems here is that by definition a number of youngsters will not make the next level and will be dropped off the schemes. If there is not a strong club structure to support these youngsters they will leave the sport. In the worst cases I have seen youngsters are not only dropped off the schemes but then blanked by the professional coaches they have been working with for years.

GB Canoeing in its current guise basically exists to produce medals at the Olympic Games and they have achieved medals at the last four Olympics culminating in our best ever results with a Gold and a Silver at London. However, with each success the bar is raised to continue funding and I understand we need to get 7 medals across sprint and slalom at Rio. If this is not achieved funding will be reduced or withdrawn. If it is the latter the professional coaches and administrators will leave the sport or look abroad for jobs, leaving the GB teams to go back to being run by volunteers. It is worth noting that although we had a brilliant result with the C2s at London we didn’t get a boat into the final of C1, K1 men, or K1 women, so it’s fair to say the medals are not guaranteed by funding.

If we look at the recent Talent Identification Programme (TID) at Lee Valley, 1,400 11 – 12 year olds are being screened to select a number to go on and to be fast tracked to be able to compete for places in the Junior GB Squad by the age of 15 or 16. They have also run a TID programme for 50 youngsters already in paddle sport for the academy scheme. As far as I know there is not a Lee Valley Slalom Club so what will happen to the youngsters that fall in love with slalom but do not make the criteria to remain on the scheme in the years to come? Or those enthused by having a go at slalom through the TID but currently don’t make the grade? Also, as this is GB Canoeing initiative what will happen to all these youngsters if funding is reduced/removed in four years time?

If there was a Lee Valley Canoe Club we may have had a Div 2 event on the Legacy Loop course this year?

A more sustainable approach I believe to develop our champions of the future and grow the grass roots of our brilliant sport is to help develop all clubs, coaches and training venues. If the non-lottery funding was channelled through the Canoe England Slalom Committee this should help the development of slalom across the country rather that at a couple of venues. I know Canoe England Slalom have some limited funds that we have recently accessed, and are grateful for, to develop our training venue at Howsham Mill. But with more funding through Canoe England Slalom, are we not better placed to support all clubs to increase each club’s slalom participation numbers in slalom by say 15% each year rather than pots of money going into a couple of places? This way clubs can grow their numbers, coaches and venues in a realistic, manageable and sustainable way.

It is vital that we address the issue of developing more slalom coaches. When the new coaching scheme was introduced I calculated that to become a Level 3 Slalom Coach it would take 25 days training (if you included all the add ons needed like first aid training) and is very expensive. When I did my qualifications up to Level 3 with John Sturgess I think it was in total 6 days and a couple of evenings at a cost of £75 that including the first aid training. Maybe 25 days and spending loads of money may have made me a better coach but with the current model I would not have started the process. The current scheme was devised by the professionals at BCU that I think has just put the volunteers off. England will run out of slalom coaches if this is not addressed.

[John Sturgess]

Hear hear, Phil

Especially the bits about Club structures at Lea Valley

But obviously I like the bit about me as well!

[Niciss]

Not sure Im qualified to post here, but this directly affects my daughter who has 'fallen' for slalom and has no access to coaching, so here goes. My daughter is 11, has done recreational paddling with 2 local clubs non of whom do slalom. Shes attended a few slalom events with a paddling dad and his daughter. She has really enjoyed the competitions shes done, but is always out paddled by those from 'proper' slalom clubs. She doesn't have access to a slalom boat, we recently bought her a boat of her own but opted for a plastic river runner which she will get more use from with the clubs shes in, we just can't justify the expense of a slalom boat especially if she'll never get shown how to use it properly.
When I received a gushy email from BCU about olympic legacy and Lee Valley I contacted them about the limited accessibilty of the schemes they were running and had they considered running a holiday camp, so that children from up north could camp with their parents and access some good coaching, maybe over a week or 3 days. I was referred to my regional rep - ha.
I dont know the difficulties coaches face so cant comment on that, but what would help us would be, a pool of slalom boats available for competitions so you could attend assurred that you had access to a decent suitable boat, and training over a few days which makes the travel and cost worth your while.
I can say that all the people we meet at the competitions are really helpful, and as far as my daughter is concerned it is fun, but I do get the comments about pushy parents. At one race we recently attended I commented that for some reason parents of paddlers who would be disgusted at types of football touchline behaviour, seem to think its acceptable because its paddling - its not and bringing your child to tears regardless of the sport is unacceptable.

[djberriman]

Have to agree with Phil on this one.

As for your daughter niciss where are you located? The best thing I could suggest is to join the nearest slalom club so at least at events there will be other club members and coaches to provide input even if that club is located far away and you can not attend the club. You might like to consider the Grand Tully training week in August which is between Fairnilee and the Grand Tully week, camping on site, a whole weeks training! It is also run at Easter.

[John Sturgess]

e-mail me on ECSTCoach@jsturgess.freeserve.co.uk, and I will be able to tell you where your nearest suitable group is

John

[Jim]

Or email me the BCH Slalom Adminitrator at jim.croft@ntlworld.com with your location and I may be able to help

[Niciss]

Thanks for the offers of help, but I have established with John that we're snookered in terms or attending any regular slalom coaching, and we're not in the back of beyond, just Liverpool. So how about a series of funded slalom training / try out sessions, specifically for those who don't have regular access at their own club, to try and generate enthusiasm from the bottom up. John mentioned the importance of the social side especially for juniors, 3 or 4 fun weekend training dates, combined with competition dates would be enough for kids to create friendship groups. I'm not talking about those already in Div2 upwards, but beginners who need to be hooked in. It would be unfair for clubs to have to foot the bill either financially or in terms of volunteer hours as they wouldn't get the benefit of potential members. But if everyone agrees that clubs are few and far between and therefore access limited maybe this is an option.

[davebrads]

Hi Niciss

Even before you said you were from Liverpool I knew who you were, and to be honest I was thinking of your situation when I started this thread. We have had members at MCC that have travelled from Birkenhead, Ormskirk and Preston to train, but it a serious (and expensive) trek and I don't blame you for not doing it.

There is only one slalom training site in the whole of the North West (which might explain Mike R's problem with the regional team). I believe that we as a sport should have a target that no-one should live more than 30 minutes from their local training site (I mentioned this once a few years ago and was told it was "unrealistic" by the chair of the slalom committee). There is good stuff happening in little pockets around the country (England that is), but none of it is being co-ordinated, either by the committe or Canoe England (whoever they are). In particular the situation in Yorkshire is fairly healthy - but that is down to some hard working volunteers whose efforts seem to be barely recognised by those supposedly in control of our sport.

There obviously is a little pocket of interest in Liverpool at the moment, that needs nurturing or else it will fizzle out and die. They don't even have any training poles!