I think we need to separate team selection from funding... We should always aim to send a full team into major Internationals, even if boats # 2 & 3 are really only going for experience it will develop and support the wider sport.
Per centages are often required for funding - we need to show to UK Sport, public bodies and sponsors that they are getting value with a reasonable chance of success and good publicity. Hence per centages may be used by GB Canoeing to determine eligibility and level of funding. It is not a panacea for all the ills but it may assist in allowing clear team selection guidelines.
May also switch and clarify the focus and availability of funding, I have certainly heard many misconceptions on that front..
GB Selection Policy
Re: GB Junior European Team
I think it was right to send a whole team but I also do think Silver Surfer has a point and whether you agree with it or not I guess you have to take your hat off to him for raising it. I don't know that it is deliberate but I do think it needs tidying up. In addition if discretion is being applied that is ok but it clearly would need to be applied across the categories at the same level or that could be considered discriminatory. I think the athletes are owed more respect than thatSilverSurfer wrote: The only concern I have with discretion being applied, is that it is left to interpretation with no boundaries - and deliberately so by the IP, but that is wrong. Being able to apply discretion is fine, as long as there is a published upper limit. This year I believe the IP have exceeded that upper limit with some team selections.
I can't say I have sat down and looked at who hit what percentage but I think I might be right in saying from the thread that Silver Surfer has
Still not sure if this discretionary approach is applied in other nations...........anyone?
Re: GB Junior European Team
Firstly if a full team is always selected, does that really encourage the paddlers to improve?Seedy Paddler wrote:I think we need to separate team selection from funding... We should always aim to send a full team into major Internationals, even if boats # 2 & 3 are really only going for experience it will develop and support the wider sport.
Per centages are often required for funding - we need to show to UK Sport, public bodies and sponsors that they are getting value with a reasonable chance of success and good publicity. Hence per centages may be used by GB Canoeing to determine eligibility and level of funding. It is not a panacea for all the ills but it may assist in allowing clear team selection guidelines.
May also switch and clarify the focus and availability of funding, I have certainly heard many misconceptions on that front..
If percentages are used to demostrate a funding application from UK sport, what will happen to our sport when they realise how unreliable they actually are to measure performance?
If the winner of the MK1 is used to establish the base percentage there is a problem with this as our MK1 class is unfortunately comparatively weak on the world stage to what has been in previous years. It would make sense to invite top international paddlers for each class to selection events to help establish a truly world class bench mark. If percentages are really needed it would be far better to set the bench mark in a class specific way using competitor of known world leading standard.
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SilverSurfer
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 1:09 pm
- Location: Nottingham
Re: GB Junior European Team
Sending a full team, including those paddlers that don't make percentages for experience does not "develop and support the wider sport" as stated by Seedy Paddler. It sends out a message that if any class is weak at any point in time, then it is a meal ticket to get on a GB team.
To develop the sport, specifically for the weaker classes e.g., C1W at present, there needs to be specific targeted coached programmes. The money that will be spent on sending a handful of paddlers to the European championships for "experience" only, could be used for this. When paddlers are good enough, then and only then should they sent to the international races.
Funding is limited, and therefore it should be used wisely to move the sport forward, and hopefully in return for success brings in more funding.
I recollect a couple of years back there used to be C1W sessions run by Gaz at HPP, they were very successful - why did they stop? If they had continued the strength and depth of C1W now would be far greater.
The standard of the top 4 or 5 paddlers in C1W in Prem/Div 1 is very good, as was shown by their times against the K1W at the HPP race. However, after that, the standard drops significantly, and looking at the results over the 3 selection races, it was about who got the least 50 penalty points, picked up the selection points for the European team. That is not being critical of those paddlers, but a fact, and we need to help those paddlers develop, putting them on a GB team does not do this.
As for percentages, the selection policy states they are based on the top 20 at the junior Worlds or Euro championship. Therefore, one could argue the percentages used are a useful measure. However, as pointed out by JJayes, the actual percentages in a race are based on the UK top K1M. So depending on who the top K1M is, the water being raced on, the conditions on the day etc, will impact the percentages gained. Hence, the reason why discretion is applied, and rightly so.
However, as previously stated, discretion has to have an upper limit, and for me this is a major flaw in the selection policy. On the face of it the IP apply discretion based on internal politics, who they want in a team, and when it suits to have a full team. I could be wrong, but until we get transparency and an open and fair selection policy we can only go on what we see.
To develop the sport, specifically for the weaker classes e.g., C1W at present, there needs to be specific targeted coached programmes. The money that will be spent on sending a handful of paddlers to the European championships for "experience" only, could be used for this. When paddlers are good enough, then and only then should they sent to the international races.
Funding is limited, and therefore it should be used wisely to move the sport forward, and hopefully in return for success brings in more funding.
I recollect a couple of years back there used to be C1W sessions run by Gaz at HPP, they were very successful - why did they stop? If they had continued the strength and depth of C1W now would be far greater.
The standard of the top 4 or 5 paddlers in C1W in Prem/Div 1 is very good, as was shown by their times against the K1W at the HPP race. However, after that, the standard drops significantly, and looking at the results over the 3 selection races, it was about who got the least 50 penalty points, picked up the selection points for the European team. That is not being critical of those paddlers, but a fact, and we need to help those paddlers develop, putting them on a GB team does not do this.
As for percentages, the selection policy states they are based on the top 20 at the junior Worlds or Euro championship. Therefore, one could argue the percentages used are a useful measure. However, as pointed out by JJayes, the actual percentages in a race are based on the UK top K1M. So depending on who the top K1M is, the water being raced on, the conditions on the day etc, will impact the percentages gained. Hence, the reason why discretion is applied, and rightly so.
However, as previously stated, discretion has to have an upper limit, and for me this is a major flaw in the selection policy. On the face of it the IP apply discretion based on internal politics, who they want in a team, and when it suits to have a full team. I could be wrong, but until we get transparency and an open and fair selection policy we can only go on what we see.
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BaldockBabe
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am
Re: GB Junior European Team
Actually, I think this is a bit harsh on this occassion. The winner of the K1M at HPP was a finalist in the World Champs in Prague last year!jjayes wrote:
If the winner of the MK1 is used to establish the base percentage there is a problem with this as our MK1 class is unfortunately comparatively weak on the world stage to what has been in previous years. It would make sense to invite top international paddlers for each class to selection events to help establish a truly world class bench mark. If percentages are really needed it would be far better to set the bench mark in a class specific way using competitor of known world leading standard.
Re: GB Junior European Team
Whilst 6th place in the worlds is a fantastic result for a developing paddler, who I am sure we will see even greater things in the future. What I said is factual. My main point is still that percentages when comparing between classes does not work and the variation in standard of our MK 1 year on year only adds to the inconsistancies.
The idea that we seem to have to resort to discretion only emphasizes the problem with using percentages to compare classes.
My point about inviting top internationals to selection to help set a bench marks for each class to work from and to increase further the standard of competition is something that may well solve the problem we currently have. Fortunately we do not need to invite C1s or C2s!!!
The idea that we seem to have to resort to discretion only emphasizes the problem with using percentages to compare classes.
My point about inviting top internationals to selection to help set a bench marks for each class to work from and to increase further the standard of competition is something that may well solve the problem we currently have. Fortunately we do not need to invite C1s or C2s!!!
Re: GB Junior European Team
Many congratulations to all the GB Junior team members - well done!
If there is an issue with the IP and how selection is or is not made then that is a topic for debate - but can we do it away from the successes of the recently selected Junior team members
They too probably read this chatter Board and I suspect having done so may be feeling a bit down in the dumps about this discussion and feeling that their achievement is not valued.
While I am sure this is not the case! they are after all not adults - as are the participants in this thread - but juniors and may even be wondering what they have done wrong
From me - you have done everything right - well done again!
If there is an issue with the IP and how selection is or is not made then that is a topic for debate - but can we do it away from the successes of the recently selected Junior team members
They too probably read this chatter Board and I suspect having done so may be feeling a bit down in the dumps about this discussion and feeling that their achievement is not valued.
While I am sure this is not the case! they are after all not adults - as are the participants in this thread - but juniors and may even be wondering what they have done wrong
From me - you have done everything right - well done again!
Re: GB Junior European Team
I couldn't agree more boatmum, well said- lets encourage and support our young paddlers instead of making them feel undervalued - after all this year the Europeans has been designated for developement so lets develop our up and coming talent!!
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SilverSurfer
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 1:09 pm
- Location: Nottingham
Re: GB Junior European Team
Those who have read my opening post, will note that I congratulated those on the GB team. This post is not about any specific paddler or any specific class but the selection policy itself, so please don't imply, directly or otherwise that I am being disrespectful to any paddler.
I original raised a post due to my concerns with the draft selection policy back in December, this follow up post is a continuation of that concern now that we have seen how the IP have executed it.
The purpose of an open forum is to express ones views, and I am exercising my rights to do that. To some this may appear insensitive, not politically correct, or just mean spirited. I am sorry if people feel that way. I know that I am not alone in my views on the selection policy, but I am not the sort of person who sits back and buries my head in the sand. Change is needed.
Any data I have referenced in this posting is in the public domain. I have made reference to it to highlight the inconsistency and lack of transparency by the IP when executing the selection policy.
If concerns are not discussed when there are current, they soon get forgotten about, that is until the the next time, by which time it is all too late.
I original raised a post due to my concerns with the draft selection policy back in December, this follow up post is a continuation of that concern now that we have seen how the IP have executed it.
The purpose of an open forum is to express ones views, and I am exercising my rights to do that. To some this may appear insensitive, not politically correct, or just mean spirited. I am sorry if people feel that way. I know that I am not alone in my views on the selection policy, but I am not the sort of person who sits back and buries my head in the sand. Change is needed.
Any data I have referenced in this posting is in the public domain. I have made reference to it to highlight the inconsistency and lack of transparency by the IP when executing the selection policy.
If concerns are not discussed when there are current, they soon get forgotten about, that is until the the next time, by which time it is all too late.
Re: GB Junior European Team
You will note in my post I was very careful to say:
I repeat what I said before - these are JUNIORS - YOUNG PEOPLE - take this debate elsewhere on chatter and dont label it GB Junior European Team - call it GB Canoeing selection policy or something similar if you will, but I suggest targeting (even indirectly) the current Junior squad is not productive.
However I still feel this is better discussed in a post away from the successes of the current juniors. This is a time when ALL of them should be allowed to take great pride in their achievements and not have question marks put over their inclusion.If there is an issue with the IP and how selection is or is not made then that is a topic for debate ...
I repeat what I said before - these are JUNIORS - YOUNG PEOPLE - take this debate elsewhere on chatter and dont label it GB Junior European Team - call it GB Canoeing selection policy or something similar if you will, but I suggest targeting (even indirectly) the current Junior squad is not productive.
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SilverSurfer
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 1:09 pm
- Location: Nottingham
Re: GB Selection Policy
As requested I have updated the title of the post, but my concerns and opinions remain the same.
If you are aware of the appropriate slalom chatter board to raise awareness and concerns, other than this one, then please, do share as I am not. A public chatter board, is just that, public. Contacting the IP directly was ignored, so what are the alternatives?
If you are aware of the appropriate slalom chatter board to raise awareness and concerns, other than this one, then please, do share as I am not. A public chatter board, is just that, public. Contacting the IP directly was ignored, so what are the alternatives?
Re: GB Junior European Team
As Silver Surfer David " The purpose of an open forum is to express ones views, and I am exercising my rights to do that. To some this may appear insensitive, not politically correct, or just mean spirited. I am sorry if people feel that way. I know that I am not alone in my views on the selection policy, but I am not the sort of person who sits back and buries my head in the sand. Change is needed."
It would seem that this forum is often the only outlet to express a opinion. One only needs to look back to the initial discussion last year when the I.P. decided to select paddlers for a class based on the performance on another. This was openly discussed on this forum and after going on to higher political channel the I.P was forced to do things the right way.
If I was a paddler now I would view this forum as possibly the only protection from wrongful decisions imposed by the I.P.
To not debate these matters openly would be very much a backwards step. One of the major concerns with the I.P. is their lack of transparency and not debating matters would only make thing worse in the future.
People in power need to be looked at very closely and that is what this forum helps to do. Its not perfect but it all we have.
It would seem that this forum is often the only outlet to express a opinion. One only needs to look back to the initial discussion last year when the I.P. decided to select paddlers for a class based on the performance on another. This was openly discussed on this forum and after going on to higher political channel the I.P was forced to do things the right way.
If I was a paddler now I would view this forum as possibly the only protection from wrongful decisions imposed by the I.P.
To not debate these matters openly would be very much a backwards step. One of the major concerns with the I.P. is their lack of transparency and not debating matters would only make thing worse in the future.
People in power need to be looked at very closely and that is what this forum helps to do. Its not perfect but it all we have.
Re: GB Selection Policy
Silver surfer
Thanks for changing the thread name - that does help your point about not targeting individuals
The only other public forum board I know of is on UK Rivers Guide - on their community forum under competition
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... 8f70732c4c
this forum is used a lot to air issues but by mainly non competition paddle groups
Thanks for changing the thread name - that does help your point about not targeting individuals
The only other public forum board I know of is on UK Rivers Guide - on their community forum under competition
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... 8f70732c4c
this forum is used a lot to air issues but by mainly non competition paddle groups
Re: GB Selection Policy
Boatmum,
if we now change the debate to UKR, the kids will follow the link. I think you are maybe underestemating them a little. I am sure they are a lot smarter than you or I when it comes to the net and finding what you want. I also think most, if not all will see this debate as a good thing and will not take anything personally.
if we now change the debate to UKR, the kids will follow the link. I think you are maybe underestemating them a little. I am sure they are a lot smarter than you or I when it comes to the net and finding what you want. I also think most, if not all will see this debate as a good thing and will not take anything personally.
Re: GB Selection Policy
Oh for goodness sake
I wasn't suggesting that this debate move to UKRG - it was info for Silver Surfer in response to his query
All I suggested - and Silver Surfer has kindly done so - is to remove the crux of this debate from being directed at the current Junior GB team by changing the thread title to provide some distance between the points being made re policy and the recently selected squad.
and yes the young folk are very smart but some of the comments in this thread can be READ (to remove any doubt as to what I mean here, READ is in capitals to emphasise I do not mean they WERE ) - as being pointed and some will take them personally.
I wasn't suggesting that this debate move to UKRG - it was info for Silver Surfer in response to his query
All I suggested - and Silver Surfer has kindly done so - is to remove the crux of this debate from being directed at the current Junior GB team by changing the thread title to provide some distance between the points being made re policy and the recently selected squad.
and yes the young folk are very smart but some of the comments in this thread can be READ (to remove any doubt as to what I mean here, READ is in capitals to emphasise I do not mean they WERE ) - as being pointed and some will take them personally.