In the GB Junior European Team post CeeBee asks, "Why are there not more C1 women and what do we need to do across the sport to encourage C1 Women?" A timely question after the experience at the Holme Pierrepont Div 4 slalom on Saturday. The slalom was great with a really good entry. I encouraged 4 of the S&S junior Div 3 kayak girls to enter the Div 4 C1W race. There were 7 girls racing in C1W and ignorant of the current rules, I assumed that there would be 2 promotions - WRONG! The 1 in 5 promotion only applies to K1M, K1W and C1 so the C1W and C2 have to perform within 120% of the last promoted K1M if they are to achieve promotion.
In the C1W race a super fast girl from Rapid Talent won the race by a very big margin. Her result would have gained promotion in the K1W and C1 races! Did she gain promotion in C1W - No! Some very fast K1M made 120% impossible. One of the S&S girls took 2nd place, and at the time thought she would get promotion, but later discovered she wouldn't.
So does the 120% rule encourage C1W participation - I think not. Should the 120% ruling be scrapped in favour of 1 in 5 in all classes? What do others think? No change would be possible this season but it could easily be put forward as a motion to the ACM.
Encouraging C1 Women
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SilverSurfer
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Re: Encouraging C1 Women
I would agree it isn't consistent between K1M/K1W/C1M and C1W/C2 when it comes to promotion from division 4 to 3 in the rule book. I must admit I thought the 1 in 5 promotion applied to all classes - which would make sense.
Having said that, if it was a division 3 race, and the C1W was inquorate then the 120% of the K1M time would still apply. This then impacts the points awarded in different C1W races. For example:
- Assume there were 5 C1W paddlers, so quorate, with the 1st placed C1W being 170% slower than the fastest K1M time, the 1st placed C1W paddler would still get 1000 points.
- Assume the same race, same times, but only 3 C1W paddlers so inquorate, the 1st place C1W would not get 1000 points, but significantly less.
The above scenario happens, and therefore whilst we have races that are sometimes quorate and sometimes inquorate, the points system would appear unfair.
Open question, should all classes be judged on their own merit, or based on a percentage of the fastest K1M?
Having said that, if it was a division 3 race, and the C1W was inquorate then the 120% of the K1M time would still apply. This then impacts the points awarded in different C1W races. For example:
- Assume there were 5 C1W paddlers, so quorate, with the 1st placed C1W being 170% slower than the fastest K1M time, the 1st placed C1W paddler would still get 1000 points.
- Assume the same race, same times, but only 3 C1W paddlers so inquorate, the 1st place C1W would not get 1000 points, but significantly less.
The above scenario happens, and therefore whilst we have races that are sometimes quorate and sometimes inquorate, the points system would appear unfair.
Open question, should all classes be judged on their own merit, or based on a percentage of the fastest K1M?
Re: Encouraging C1 Women
Percentages do not work when comparing classes as all depends on the water and where the designer puts the gates. Let's not even start on whether the paddlers are left or right handed.
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SilverSurfer
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Re: Encouraging C1 Women
I agree percentages don't work across classes, so there is a definite advantage to paddling when quorate.
Re: Encouraging C1 Women
Having read most of the posts since the International panel statement post junior selections, I felt that I would like to share my views as a parent of a C1W.
Firstly, well done to the girls that have been selected for the team, you have earned your places, so go out and enjoy the experience and we will all be proud of your achievements.
I notice that all 3 of the junior girls C1's as Scottish paddlers, and I would be interested in how much support they get from their home nation/governing body. I know that Canoe England have no dedicated junior C1W paddlers on programme. In fact, their top ranking C1W junior paddler (Scarlett Kearney) has no support from CE what so ever. Some of the junior paddlers that were on programme due to their K1 achievements, may well get some C1 coaching provided within their training, but as far as I know there is nothing in place for C1W.
On another thread, somebody mentioned Gaz Wilsons sessions at HPP a couple of years ago. They were fantastic sessions and the girls that attended benefited enormously from them. Once Gaz was unable to run the sessions, there was nobody to take over. The girls, Jackie Shaw, Kate Kent, Callie Halliday and Kosi Atkinson kept going for a while, training together and challenging each other and themselves, but with no coach these sessions came to an end.
Last winter a few girls were invited to join a programme with Gaz. This was a programme supported by CE, with a financial committee made by the girls participating. They had a fantastic winter training at HPP, Matlock, Tryweryn and a residential course in February half term. They were all beginning to be valued as a group when, without notice and before the GB trials at Lee Valley Gaz was taken to become the GB C2 coach. This left at least one athlete at under 23 trials without anybody to help with a course walk or any coaching. It was only thanks to Martin Setchell that she got to view a video of her performance in order to try and improve on her own.
As far as I am aware there has been nothing else done to promote C1W since. Although in the top 10 in GB there was no support for our daughter. CE suggested that she went to training sessions at her club, but they told her that all elite sessions were full. So unfortunately left without any provision she has decided not to compete so far this year and although she has qualified for the selections next week at Lee Valley, she won't be competing. I notice that 5 girls who qualified aren't on the start list, but all the competitors that will be there will have coaches helping them through.
If there is to be a future in C1W, surely these girls who are in the top half of the prem, should be getting some support.
Firstly, well done to the girls that have been selected for the team, you have earned your places, so go out and enjoy the experience and we will all be proud of your achievements.
I notice that all 3 of the junior girls C1's as Scottish paddlers, and I would be interested in how much support they get from their home nation/governing body. I know that Canoe England have no dedicated junior C1W paddlers on programme. In fact, their top ranking C1W junior paddler (Scarlett Kearney) has no support from CE what so ever. Some of the junior paddlers that were on programme due to their K1 achievements, may well get some C1 coaching provided within their training, but as far as I know there is nothing in place for C1W.
On another thread, somebody mentioned Gaz Wilsons sessions at HPP a couple of years ago. They were fantastic sessions and the girls that attended benefited enormously from them. Once Gaz was unable to run the sessions, there was nobody to take over. The girls, Jackie Shaw, Kate Kent, Callie Halliday and Kosi Atkinson kept going for a while, training together and challenging each other and themselves, but with no coach these sessions came to an end.
Last winter a few girls were invited to join a programme with Gaz. This was a programme supported by CE, with a financial committee made by the girls participating. They had a fantastic winter training at HPP, Matlock, Tryweryn and a residential course in February half term. They were all beginning to be valued as a group when, without notice and before the GB trials at Lee Valley Gaz was taken to become the GB C2 coach. This left at least one athlete at under 23 trials without anybody to help with a course walk or any coaching. It was only thanks to Martin Setchell that she got to view a video of her performance in order to try and improve on her own.
As far as I am aware there has been nothing else done to promote C1W since. Although in the top 10 in GB there was no support for our daughter. CE suggested that she went to training sessions at her club, but they told her that all elite sessions were full. So unfortunately left without any provision she has decided not to compete so far this year and although she has qualified for the selections next week at Lee Valley, she won't be competing. I notice that 5 girls who qualified aren't on the start list, but all the competitors that will be there will have coaches helping them through.
If there is to be a future in C1W, surely these girls who are in the top half of the prem, should be getting some support.
Re: Encouraging C1 Women
Pretty sure the Scottish C1W are reliant on club volunteers who had the foresight to help that category early on I dont believe there is any specific C1W programme in Scotland.
Re: Encouraging C1 Women
That's my understanding too.Sven wrote:Pretty sure the Scottish C1W are reliant on club volunteers who had the foresight to help that category early on I dont believe there is any specific C1W programme in Scotland.
Not to mention the complete lack of dedicated support for any paddler based outwith Perth & Kinross.
Strange but true.
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SilverSurfer
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Re: Encouraging C1 Women
Hi Sueh, it was me who made the reference to the Gaz sessions at HPP in my GB Selection Policy post.
I totally agree with what you have said, for far too long C1W has been the forgotten class. Every time this is raised, the same reason is given, it isn't an Olympic sport, there is no funding. Anyone with any foresight could see that one day C1W would become an Olympic sport, if only on the grounds of gender equality.
If the investment had been made several years ago, instead of just having 3 or 4 top C1W paddlers we would have had many more. Which when you consider the GB Canoeing strap line "To be the number 1 Olympic and Paralympic canoeing nation with quality and depth of excellence in all that we do " , it makes their actions laughable.
Even now there is only one C1W funded paddler on the GB programme, and I understand that is at the expense of a C2 paddler being dropped - so still not much investment. The other 2 top C1W paddlers are funded under their K1W status.
As part of the CE national programmes over the last couple of years, there have been some C1W paddlers, but with the exception of Kosi and Anna, none were dedicated C1W paddlers. Those tagged as C1W/K1W paddlers on the programmes, the C1W before the K1W to make the distinction that they were selected for their C1W accolades and not K1W - did not receive any dedicated C1W coaching, only a token gesture with the odd C1 session.
It would appear that GB canoeing are more than happy to "promote" C1W when the top 3 C1W win medals, during the dry periods when no other classes win medals, but less keen to put any funding forward. As noted in my other post, I genuinely believe using the funds from the Junior euros/worlds towards a dedicated C1W coached programme would reap more rewards in the long run than selecting a developing junior C1W team now.
To end on a positive note, there is finally a change in the air at HPP. Some dedicated C1 sessions are being run at HPP with a greater focus on cross training in C1 for both junior girls and boys - but still no sign of any girls starting from day 1 in C1W as an alternative to K1W.
Whilst this is good news, it doesn't help those C1W paddlers who have gone before, and has SueH points out, is reflected in the number of C1W paddlers on the S/U23 selection start line.
A greater focus at a national level in C1W is required, and is long overdue.
I totally agree with what you have said, for far too long C1W has been the forgotten class. Every time this is raised, the same reason is given, it isn't an Olympic sport, there is no funding. Anyone with any foresight could see that one day C1W would become an Olympic sport, if only on the grounds of gender equality.
If the investment had been made several years ago, instead of just having 3 or 4 top C1W paddlers we would have had many more. Which when you consider the GB Canoeing strap line "To be the number 1 Olympic and Paralympic canoeing nation with quality and depth of excellence in all that we do " , it makes their actions laughable.
Even now there is only one C1W funded paddler on the GB programme, and I understand that is at the expense of a C2 paddler being dropped - so still not much investment. The other 2 top C1W paddlers are funded under their K1W status.
As part of the CE national programmes over the last couple of years, there have been some C1W paddlers, but with the exception of Kosi and Anna, none were dedicated C1W paddlers. Those tagged as C1W/K1W paddlers on the programmes, the C1W before the K1W to make the distinction that they were selected for their C1W accolades and not K1W - did not receive any dedicated C1W coaching, only a token gesture with the odd C1 session.
It would appear that GB canoeing are more than happy to "promote" C1W when the top 3 C1W win medals, during the dry periods when no other classes win medals, but less keen to put any funding forward. As noted in my other post, I genuinely believe using the funds from the Junior euros/worlds towards a dedicated C1W coached programme would reap more rewards in the long run than selecting a developing junior C1W team now.
To end on a positive note, there is finally a change in the air at HPP. Some dedicated C1 sessions are being run at HPP with a greater focus on cross training in C1 for both junior girls and boys - but still no sign of any girls starting from day 1 in C1W as an alternative to K1W.
Whilst this is good news, it doesn't help those C1W paddlers who have gone before, and has SueH points out, is reflected in the number of C1W paddlers on the S/U23 selection start line.
A greater focus at a national level in C1W is required, and is long overdue.
Re: Encouraging C1 Women
Yes C1W will become an Olympic class however not for another 6 years and in the mean time C2 is still an Olympic class and funding for them has to be a priority at the moment also so far nothing official has been said that it will not be although it is expected that is the case. What everyone has to remember GB canoeing are governed by guideline from UK sport who fund them - If you want to know what the plans are for the coming years try asking them instead of winging!
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BaldockBabe
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Re: Encouraging C1 Women
Errr... I doubt you can make an Olympic champion in 4 years, it takes time for someone of that pedigree to develop. If investment is not made until after C2 is dropped (if in fact it is, we all hope it is not), that will leave 4 years to develop the class. The class needs to be developed now before we miss the boat (so to speak). /Mummsie wrote:Yes C1W will become an Olympic class however not for another 6 years and in the mean time C2 is still an Olympic class and funding for them has to be a priority at the moment also so far nothing official has been said that it will not be although it is expected that is the case. !
Regardless of whether C2/ C1 is in the Olympics post Japan, both disciplines are World Cup/ World Championship events and therefore need investment.
Re: Encouraging C1 Women
[quote=", both disciplines are World Cup/ World Championship events and therefore need investment.[/quote]
I an ideal world but is that reflecting on the ground?
I an ideal world but is that reflecting on the ground?
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SilverSurfer
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Re: Encouraging C1 Women
Mummsie, this is not a C2 vs. C1W debate or battle, both are equally as important, so no one is "whinging".
The points being expressed are valid, C1W has been an underfunded, and unsupported class for far too long. Now that Olympic status has been sanctioned, and rightly so, all that is been asked is how can C1W be developed moving forward.
I agree GB Canoeing to some extent have their hands tied by UK Sport, but if there is a desire to do something, you will always find a way.
The points being expressed are valid, C1W has been an underfunded, and unsupported class for far too long. Now that Olympic status has been sanctioned, and rightly so, all that is been asked is how can C1W be developed moving forward.
I agree GB Canoeing to some extent have their hands tied by UK Sport, but if there is a desire to do something, you will always find a way.
Re: Encouraging C1 Women
In an ideal word yes but we all know there is not a bottomless pit of money and there are restrictions put on GB canoeing buy UK sport. However the need for starting somewhere has been recognised there are 4 C1W on some level of support. Being a world championship class is not UK's sport's criteria for funding it is Olympic.
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SilverSurfer
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Re: Encouraging C1 Women
Sorry, I have to disagree, there are not 4 funded C1W paddlers, there is only 1 C1W funded paddler.
There are sufficient funds to have C1W coached programmes, especially in England (I can't speak for the other home nations) - the point being made is that the CE programmes invite paddlers on as a C1W paddler, but then don't follow through with the coached support - it always reverts back to K1 support.
There should be a budget to send a full junior GB team for C2 and C1W to the Junior Worlds, given only one C1W paddler has the opportunity to go to the worlds, then the budget won't be used, couldn't that budget be used for C1 and C2 development on home soil ?
As I said if there is a desire to do something, you will always find a way.
There are sufficient funds to have C1W coached programmes, especially in England (I can't speak for the other home nations) - the point being made is that the CE programmes invite paddlers on as a C1W paddler, but then don't follow through with the coached support - it always reverts back to K1 support.
There should be a budget to send a full junior GB team for C2 and C1W to the Junior Worlds, given only one C1W paddler has the opportunity to go to the worlds, then the budget won't be used, couldn't that budget be used for C1 and C2 development on home soil ?
As I said if there is a desire to do something, you will always find a way.
Re: Encouraging C1 Women
having read all the above posts, and knowing the restraints on funding and the 4 year cycle of funding which doesn't include C1W. Also thinking that an Olympian takes more than 4 years to 'grow'! I am just wondering why canoe sprint has been able to have screened, selected and whittled down a whole bunch of 'ready made athletes' from other canoe disciplines and sports, with the view of creating medals in C1W at the Tokyo Olympics. This has all been done through the Girls4Gold programme. Could canoe slalom not be moving in the same direction?