On-line Entry System - Requirements/Rules/Solutions

[Dee]

There has been talk about this for many years, and there are masses of threads which veer into discussions about this, but we seem to be no further forwards (partly because it is considerably more complex than it appears on the surface). However things that might have been difficult or even impossible a few years back are probably easier to achieve these days. And I'm so fed up of the talk that I'm tempted to go ahead and develop a system.

So let's start by gathering into one place requirements, considerations, questions, answers, problems and possible solutions. Please stay on topic - we need to avoid veering off into how to reorganise divisions!
I'll start with some brain dumping (which may cause people to despair at the state of my brain); please feel free to agree/disagree/question/answer questions/add some more/tell me I'm wasting my time.......

Some Basics
I believe that we want an on-line browser based system that allows the paddler to identify their boat (eg Div1/C1W/Bib13) and enter one or more events (effectively adding them to a shopping basket).
Ideally the same person should be able select multiple boats at the same or different events (eg parents with two children or paddler entering multiple classes).
That person should then be able to pay by debit/credit card and their entry automatically flagged as paid (ie no requirement for reconciling payments).

To support this there needs to be a whole host of event set up functionality and some special functions that only the organiser can access, but overall it must not add work for the organiser.

[Dee]

The bulk of my brain dump:


Calculating Fees
Any organiser knows that, left to themselves, paddlers will miscalculate the amount to pay so the amount needs to be system calculated
We need to take into account

• Division
• Age Category
• Double vs Single Events
• Late fees (bearing in mind that a double event it is possible for Sat to incur a late fee but not Sun for a 24hr period!)
• System needs to know that a div 2/3 C2 boat is charged div 2 rates at a div 2,2/3 or 2/3/4 event and div 3 rates at a div 3 or 3/4 event etc
• Adjusted fees - some events do not charge the standard fee so their needs to be a means of recording the fees to be charged at an event
• On-line admin entry fee to cover costs of on-line payments
• Multi-class discount (this is a real headache as we don't have a unique identifier for people only boats, people could do the two entries at different times, they could potentially enter two classes at then cancel out of one)

Question:Would it be unreasonable to not provide discounts on-line and say that discounts must be claimed at the event?

Who can paddle at what event?
I believe that paddlers need to be shown three types of events that they can enter

• Events where they are in the host division(s)
• Events where they can enter as a paddle upper
• Events where they can enter as a judge

This means knowing that a div 2/3 boat can enter as a host division boat in div 2, 2/3, 3 or 2/3/4 events and as a paddle upper in div 1 and as a judge everywhere. This needs to be flexible as divisions change/merge/split etc
Question:Do we have any situations where paddle uppers are just not allowed even if the event is not full?

Boat Identification
This needs to be selected from drop down lists (All organisers know that not all paddlers get the bib number correct).
To support this the list needs to be automatically updated each day
Using on-line entries means that we will not be getting disclaimer signatures on the cards Question: Should we only allow paddlers to enter after they have applied for their bib (and therefore signed the disclaimer) and if so how to we get this information?
Because of the need to collect signatures and know that paddlers hold BCU membership, I think that in the first instance only ranked paddlers will be able to use the entry system, this therefore excludes div 4 paddlers
Question: Could we allow div 4 registration for interested div 4 paddlers by getting them to complete a sort of bib allocation and allocating pseudo Bib numbers - would need someone to manage this
Question: What about recent promotees/direct entries? This would effectively stop them from on-line entries until bib number is allocated; I think this may have to be something that we live with for now.

Entry Limits, Waiting Lists & Paddle Ups
We must be able to set different entry limits for each event
Once an entry limit is reached we need to have a mechanism for paddlers to be added to a waiting list.
Prior to two weeks before the event paddle up, entries need to go into the waiting list, from that date paddlers need to be moved to the accepted entries list and take priority over host division paddlers who have entered later.
It is reasonable to assume that the organiser will still receive manual entries, so we need a mechanism whereby these can be taken into account, this could either be by the organiser reducing the online limit appropriately or by uploading manual entries through some other mechanism
Question: Should entry limits include judges
Question: Should judges have a separate entry limit
Question: Should the organiser be able to override the entry limit (eg to cater for 6 entries arriving in the post when there are only 5 places left, to allow entries from recent promotees)
When moving a paddler from the waiting list to the main list, it is possible that the paddler has requested a double event entry but only a single day is available, this may or may not suit the paddler Question: Any thoughts on how we manage this scenario? Maybe moving from waiting to accepted should require manual intervention from organiser
There may be manual entries which are on waiting list if we don't provide a means of adding them to the system and automate movement to the accepted list then these paddlers could lose out!
Question:Do we need to automate movement from waiting to accepted or could this be a manual process (eg organiser ticks boxes)?

Cancelations
It must be possible for automated refunds to be processed if an event is cancelled.
It should be possible for the organiser to cancel and refund individual entries, eg if a paddler has been promoted out of the division. (Note: whilst this could be done manually outside of the system this would mean someone losing the on-line admin entry fee)
Question: Should paddlers be able to cancel their own entries once accepted.
Question: Should paddlers be able to cancel their own entries if still on waiting list.
Note: if paddlers can cancel their own entries then we will have to have some form of loggon

Taking Payments
I don't believe that bank transfer is a doable option; for organisers to match up payments to entries will be a nightmare and that assumes that they can even see the payments (may community accounts have very limited on-line facilities in this regard and are no where near as flexible as individual or small business accounts)
I also don't think we want to be holding credit card/debit card details ourselves as the data protection issues become a nightmare
I therefore think we need a third party system which will take payments through credit/debit cards.
There will be a cost to this hence the need for an admin fee
I am looking at using Stripe. Specific advantages I can see:

• there is no upfront payment; charges are purely transaction based
• if a transaction is refunded then charges are wiped
• for waiting list entries we can get a token and save it for later use

To make the refunds/cancellations work I think we will need to put through each boat/event entry as a separate transaction which means multiple transactions will show on the paddlers credit card Question: Does this matter?

Getting Data Out
There has to be a means of downloading the list of entries to a spreadsheet or csv file or ....
Ideally there should be a card printing facility - though I think this could be an add on later; card design would need to be simplified and we'd need supplies of appropriately sized and weighted blank cards.
Ideally I think it would be good if the organiser could use the system to generate a start list but this is definitely a later option (and comes with another bag of worms).
Possibly a way of downloading a file to be directly imported into Simply Slalom

Security, Authorisation, Personal Data
We need a means of identification for Organisers and system administrators (I'd probably use mozilla persona for this)
We then need to handle authorization of who can maintain details for which event and a means to maintain this info.
Question: Should we require all users to create a logon with an email address? Pros - would mean that we know we have a valid contact email address for each entry, which could then permit individual cancellations where allowed; Cons - we are storing email addresses against paddler names.
Question: Do we need any contact details for paddlers? At the moment we do, to chase incorrect entries, but with automation this should be less of an issue and the less information we hold the fewer data protection issues we would encounter.
Need to handle all the usual security headaches, avoid code injection, have an https connection etc.

Special Cases
I've mention other special cases that I think happen often enough to need handling, but there will always be others. A few years back there was a race at HPP I think which was
Sat - Prem heats and semis
Sun - Prem finals and Div 1
I think that there was an issue where by C1W and C2 P/1 paddlers were putting in an entry for Prem on Saturday and Div 1 on Sunday. The scenario was such that P/1 paddlers could potentially achieve better points by NOT getting through to the prem finals and racing in the div 1 than by getting through to the prem finals but then being near the bottom of the field.
I believe that this may have been resolved by banning P/1 paddlers from entering the div 1.
Question: Do we need to handle this sort of special case? Or can we work on the basis that we publish the rule as widely as possible and then give the organiser the ability to cancel entries that shouldn't be there.

Historical Data
Question: How long do we need to keep data for? Could we delete and start afresh each year?

Other Stuff
Must not need organisers, administrators or paddlers to have any special software or hardware.
Needs to work on as many browsers as is reasonably possible and ideally on mobile devices.
Organisers should be able to opt out and insist on card entries, but we need to make system easy enough that they want to opt in.

[Dee]

Some more technical bits:

For those that are interested - if I go ahead with this (it still is an "IF"), I'll probably use a mysql database, node, javascript, jade, react-jade (mainly because I have used these before and am hoping to twist Forbes's arm to help me with some technical stuff and reviews)

I will work on the basis of using Github for version control and collabarative working with anyone who wants to join in.

I'm thinking in terms of using mozilla persona for logon management, again on the basis we've used it before and Stripe for payments (no experience of this, but it seems fit for purpose and reasonably priced).

Initially I can host the dB on AWS - it can share an existing instance that we have. Not sure about the code hosting as would be good to get for free!

djberriman: You mention that on the ranking database "every paddler has a unique identifier". Can you confirm that a paddler is an individual person in this case, and not a person in a class; ie if John Smith paddles C1 and K1 does he have one unique ID or two? If one then this could help with multi-class discounts though the complications with cancellations still abound. Thanks

[boatmum]

Hi

Before committing huge amounts of time it might be worth talking to other sports that already do this?

The sport I have cited before is the SDA (Scottish Downhill Association) They have a complete online entry system as well as entry for marshals (judges) results FAQs videos etc etc


http://www.sda-races.com/entries.html

Might be worth taking a squint and talking to them

[Dee]

Hi boatmum

I think we need to be aware of most of what I've posted above before looking at other systems so that we check for a match and know the things that we need to consider, but I agree with not building if we don't have to.

The problem though is likely to be one of cost - volunteer time is "free", buying a system from someone else.

I have had a quick look at the site you linked to, some initial thoughts:

• Clicking to enter actually takes you to the British Cycling Federation website who then handle all the bookings
• There is clearly some common ground between the SDA and ourselves and I can see that it could be possible to fit our race structure to theirs
• Hard to be sure but I don't know if they could handle the paddle up scenario and I'm not sure if we could require entrants to select from a predifined list of bib numbers
• The lists of entrants don't seem to have any pre-defined bib number equivalents
• It's not clear what happens with cancellation of an event, I get the impression that the organiser would have to individually authorise each entrants cancellation, but it does look as though a mechanism is in place to permit this
• The British Cycling Federation is clearly better funded than the BCU and obviously has a number of paid employees (and advertising for more!). This may mean it is a more commercial enterprise and they will want to charge us for use!

I'd agree it might be worth at least a discussion with them, but I think the go ahead for this would need to come from the Slalom Committee - not necessarily someone actually on the committee doing the contacting; but someone working on behalf of and with the agreement of the Slalom Committee.

Do you have any useful contacts in the SDA?

[boatmum]

HI

knew it went to British Cycling (National Governing Body) I dont personally know anyone at BC but it would be worth someone contacting British Canoeing as their senior employees will undoubtedly know people at BC, will have most likely attended Sport Uk meetings with them and they should be sympathetic viz getting some info.

I have been asked to pass on the url of another site that offers on line event entry which also looks as if it might be promising

http://www.entrycentral.com/about

[djberriman]

"djberriman: You mention that on the ranking database "every paddler has a unique identifier". Can you confirm that a paddler is an individual person in this case, and not a person in a class; ie if John Smith paddles C1 and K1 does he have one unique ID or two? If one then this could help with multi-class discounts though the complications with cancellations still abound. Thanks"

There are two distinct bits of data in the ranking database, paddlers and bibs, the simplest way to think of it is that it is bibs that race, it just happens that those bibs are then linked to one or in the case of C2 2 paddlers. Each year a new set of tables is created, the data copied from the previous year and then cleansed of redundant data, paddlers promoted and demoted etc.

There is one Duncan Berriman (paddler) on the database for 2015 who has a K1M bib, could have a C1 bib and can have multiple C2 bibs which are shared with other paddlers.

Having one paddler record ensures that all data remains consistant across bibs and when for instance one half of a C2 is updated the correct details are used for both paddlers.

So my paddler id in the database is 458 for 2015.
It just also happens the id of my div 1 K1M bib 108 is 458 but in most cases it won't be the same.

In 2014 my paddler id was 458
My K1M bib 97 id was 458
I also had 2 C2 bibs in 2014
One is bib 31 id 1276 and is shared with Scott Rudkin
The other is bib 106 id 1351 and shared with Jenny Berriman

Note: The id's are irrelevant to anyone but me and potentially someone developing the online entry system they are just a way of linking all the data together in the database.

Obviously only ranked paddlers are know about in the ranking database it does not for instance contain Div4 paddlers, officials, direct entry paddlers or paddlers who are not listed on the bib list for any other reason. New promottees will not have their new bib listed until they apply for it.

The ranking database does not contain much personal data, just the name, gender, year of birth and as of this year their BC region and number.

[Dee]

Thanks - just wanted to be sure that it really was a paddlerID (I've heard people imply that bib number gives us this - but of course it doesn't!)

PaddlerID could be very useful for working out 2nd class discounts, though I still think that given the complexity of these (especially where part-cancellations occur) and the possibility that the associated rules could be changed at any time, they could be better off outside of any system

[djberriman]

But if you don't calculate them then how do you know what to charge the person doing the entry?

[djberriman]

Rules only change yearly and as with Simply Slalom and the ranking database any entry system must be flexible to cope with changes easily, such as different prices, discounts, new divisions, paddle ups, portable points etc. Most things like costs can be in a database table (as are points targets, promotion wins etc in the ranking database). Logic like discounts will of course have to be in code but this can be amended over the winter when there are no events once any changes are known.

[Dee]

But if you don't calculate them then how do you know what to charge the person doing the entry?

I'm thinking that we could charge as if no discount and get people to claim back the discount at the slalom.

Yes, this is more work in some ways but hopefully with a big enough trade off - if people are doing on-line entries and we can download entries list then the reduction of workload in manually loading everyone into Simply Slalom or other system should substantially reduce.

What I'm not sure of is how many entries this would affect? I've run div 1/2 a div 4 sc and rarely had more than one discount at an event and suspect that for the most part this is not uncommon, especially when looking at pre-event entries.

Edit: PS I realise that div 2/3, 3/4 combined events are more likely venues for discounts and I haven't run one of these

[Dee]

Rules only change yearly and as with Simply Slalom and the ranking database any entry system must be flexible to cope with changes easily, such as different prices, discounts, new divisions, paddle ups, portable points etc. Most things like costs can be in a database table (as are points targets, promotion wins etc in the ranking database). Logic like discounts will of course have to be in code but this can be amended over the winter when there are no events once any changes are known.

Yes, I do recognise the need to be flexible and I think I've covered your list in my brain dump , but I do believe that one of the reasons that no-one has properly taken this forward is to do with the complexity of all the rules and mechanisms that we need to support. So my view is that we (or I) build something that deals with all the core stuff for ranked paddlers with as much as possible parameterised via database tables especially where changes are forseen such as new divisions, combining divisions, splitting divisions, paddle ups, paddle downs(!), etc. as a first step.

Then, when we have something that is reliable and works for at least 90% of the ranked paddlers we can extend it to add some discount rules and think about how we might manage non-ranked paddlers and their signatures for the "risk" statement.

[Dee]

HI

knew it went to British Cycling (National Governing Body) I dont personally know anyone at BC but it would be worth someone contacting British Canoeing as their senior employees will undoubtedly know people at BC, will have most likely attended Sport Uk meetings with them and they should be sympathetic viz getting some info.

I have been asked to pass on the url of another site that offers on line event entry which also looks as if it might be promising

http://www.entrycentral.com/about

Have had a quick look at this, but without actually speaking to them, I think it is probably a bit simplistic for the complexity of our rules

[Mrs C P Paddler]

What would you do about div 4 entries who have no bib number and how would they know where to enter?
Also ( wearing my Officials compliers hat) the system must be able to recognise that IF someone tries to enter a ranking race AND the do a judges it must be able to refuse the officials run. In which case it needs to record no payment. Paddlers are not allowed to enter both although this year I am already getting officials doing ranking runs. Are you expecting Officials to enter on line for a run? In which case it needs to record no payment.
Seem to recall the BCU were looking at a system which could be used by all canoeing disciplines. No idea what happened to it but might be worth getting in touch with them and finding out who was looking at it and picking their brain as to the problems.
(doing a brain dump) data protection comes to mind so you need to be sure this is covered when recording the entries.

[Dee]

What would you do about div 4 entries who have no bib number and how would they know where to enter?

My instinct is to get a system working for ranked paddlers first with div 4s continuing to enter as they always have done. I'm not saying that they should be ignored, but they come with a whole host of extra problems (proof of BCU membership/temporary BCU membership, collection of more personal data, signing of risk statement etc).

Also ( wearing my Officials compliers hat) the system must be able to recognise that IF someone tries to enter a ranking race AND the do a judges it must be able to refuse the officials run. In which case it needs to record no payment. Paddlers are not allowed to enter both although this year I am already getting officials doing ranking runs. Are you expecting Officials to enter on line for a run? In which case it needs to record no payment.

Good point! I'd been thinking of one entry per boat, but not taken this into account but with a paddlerID we can handle this.
I would work on the basis that 'charges' for officials runs work on the same basis as others and can be set as required, but at the moment would be zero. (Who knows we might start charging officials if race over subscription continues!)

Seem to recall the BCU were looking at a system which could be used by all canoeing disciplines. No idea what happened to it but might be worth getting in touch with them and finding out who was looking at it and picking their brain as to the problems.

I'd heard this too but nothing seems to have happened! I would be happy to get in touch with them before doing anything concrete, but need to know that I have backing of slalom committee first. (Will send email to request)

(doing a brain dump) data protection comes to mind so you need to be sure this is covered when recording the entries.

Yes, agreed. One of my reasons for excluding div 4 at the start and for looking at something like stripe ( which would handle all the payment details). I would expect to minimise personal data that we need to hold.