Restructuring the divisions

[djberriman]

I am sure we could as John suggest run more div 1's perhaps it's worth trying?

Most of the issues appears to be around newly promoted paddlers not being able to get a space. Why not allow them to judge and earn points? As long as they are not judging their own class there should be no issue. They just race in class (taking a judging slot) and have (themselves) to judge (not a parent).

This would generate a healthy supply of judges at the same time.

Perhaps we should allow anyone to 'race' as a divisional paddler and judge, who knows that way the judging slots might be the first to fill up!

[Debs]

HPP is a large successful club. It has an active network of coaches and runs coaching sessions on the white water throughout the week. A child starting out as a young HPP paddler has the potential (as John has suggested) to gain a lot of experience quickly if they choose to devote the time to training, and they will naturally climb the divisional system quite quickly (this is motivating for them, encouraging them to train and race even more). These are club paddlers, who are encouraged and nurtured by the club, including many, many hours of coaching by volunteers.

Please, when you scan the list of HPP paddlers, don't see a problem caused by any TID programme, see a vibrant club that is keeping the sport growing through volunteer coaches working with fantastic children and young adults, who have been encouraged to start paddling through many channels - visits to local schools, word of mouth and having a great local venue. It would be so sad if the hard work that HPP and its coaches put into nurturing young paddlers is seen by others as the problem. I would have thought that HPP is doing what any large club should be doing for the sport.

There is much, much more to HPP than a few paddlers on a TID programme (I'd be interested to now what the percentage is, I'm guessing it is very low). It seems crazy that encouraging children to take up a sport, work at it and succeed is frowned upon by the wider slalom community and seen as a problem that needs solving.

As an aside, if you suggest that these young (in some cases very young) paddlers are kept on div 2/3 water for longer than necessary, when they train on the HPP white water each week, you will simply lose them to the sport. Then there will be lots of space in the divisions. Problem solved?

Somewhere someone has got the hump and the wrong end of the stick!

At no point have I or anyone put the blame on hpp canoe club!
I was talking about kids in general coming through too quickly, and said particularly since the talent squads were introduced, all talent squads, not just central!
I have no problem with the talent squads, I think they are a good thing. My concern was that the age criteria's currently in place put pressure on the kids to get the results they need to keep their place or get a place, and I felt maybe this is something that could be looked at?

All canoe clubs in the UK are mostly run by volunteers and parents, who also support the sustainability and future of the sport! Our club has no paid staff whatsoever as I am sure this is the case for most clubs. We also struggle to encourage people to volunteer their time to support the club and the sport.

The discussion is that division 1 is too big, and my point was that the speed at which the new juniors are coming through concerns me as a parent for the reasons I suggested. This I feel has put extra pressure on div 1. My suggestion was that restructuring the division's or points or both seemed a sensible way to look at resolving both issues. As we have seen adjusting the points has already been done at the end of the 2015 season to relieve the pressure on div 1.

As I said I shall ask for it to be discussed at our next meeting and if we can but forward a proposal then great!

[JimW]

It seems to me as a relative newcomer to slalom that there are a number of issues that have built up presumably over some time:

- In-season promotion has caused div 1 to fill up

But it is still unclear if filling up is actually the problem, or if not having enough races is the real problem?

- In season promotion means that good paddlers don't stay in division for a whole year, which means others have less chance to learn from them
- Upshot of second point is that standard in the lower divisions might not be as high as it could be

I have been thinking about these 2 related ideas, and realised that they are nonsense in this context. I learn physical stuff mostly by copying others, in kite buggy racing where we have no proper club or coaching structure just about all my race craft was picked up at race meets by copying better pilots and talking to them in the pits/pub etc. When we started racing in Scotland, I continued to race with the stronger English fleet as well so that I could continue to learn and pass stuff on to the Scots. This was the basis of my reasoning. BUT when I look at slalom clubs, we have all divisions training together and coaching each other, so it really doesn't matter if the best paddlers move to a higher division - the passing on of knowledge happens in training, not at races. I am fortunate that my club attracts a good number of Prem and Div 1 paddlers so even without formal coaching I am learning so much just from watching and trying, and then watching again to see what I missed and why I failed.
I am therefore withdrawing these 2 points.

- It may or may not happen, but paddlers could seek out easy events to get fast promotion before they are properly ready.

I haven't seen any evidence of this - the paddlers I have seen getting promoted quickly have done it through winning big events.....

- Older competitors keep telling me stories of when they used to have division 2 and 3 races at venues now only considered suitable for div 1 and prem, so I guess there has been some easing off over the years?

Is this the case or is it simply that so many venues have been lost/fallen into disuse that the best venues are prioritsed for the top level races only now?
If the solution is more division 1 races, do we need more access to the top venues, or do we need more venues, or is it really all down to a lack of people to organise more events?

- Missing out on Talent ID puts a lot of youngsters off, I have had parents and coaches explaining to me how the kids see not making a squad as a huge barrier to progress. In fact it isn't and I'm sure most of us know of a few examples of top level racers who have never been in Talent ID, but it is difficult to get a youngster who isn't part of the special club to see it that way.

I don't really know enough about TID to have any more thoughts about this.

As for paddlers progressing too quickly, my thoughts on that were all about possibly leaving the lower division weak, but now I have decided that was a crazy thought, I am back to not seeing a problem with rapid progression, except that it leads into a division apparently without enough races for the number of competitors. I think on the whole the divisional system does eventually settle down and people will get to their right place within it eventually.

The point I was making about average ages in different classes was not meant as a criticism of any younger paddlers, I was suggesting that Jim Jeyes stats weren't a fair comparison however fair his intention was. John Sturgess makes some good points about time put in being more important than age which I completely agree with.

[jjayes]

Hi Jim W.

I do not think I explained myself well enough. When I wrote my comments below I was thinking that with the lack of race places especially in Div one that it may be better to keep some classes smaller than others if there are large gaps in performance within a class. I am sure in time classes will develop to a more equal level of performance.

"On the question of the divisions overall competitive quality there are obviously some serious issues. I realise this is only a snap shot and more events need to be taken into account but with just a quick look at last weeks premier event at Lee Valley it can be seen how quickly performance tails off as you look down the result sheets.

http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/results/09 ... alleyP.pdf

The gaps between the first place and the 20th place in
C1 men was 20 seconds,
LK1 26 seconds for top 20,
MK1 15 seconds for top 20,
C1 Ladies 41 second for only the top 10.

It may well be a idea to keep this in mind as numbers in different premier or possibly Div 1 classes are established as it appears many are struggling on Premier level courses from a competitive point of view."



On the question of training and racing on hard white water, I think that there are very many paddlers in div one and Prem who do not have good white water and gate technique due to to fast a progression. If they do not have a very good level of accuracy and control on easier water then how can they have it on hard white water. Too fast a progression without competence on easy water first simply ingrains bad technique. A ambitious paddler needs to emulate what the top paddlers in the world are doing technically, but on easy water first. Once they can do that then move that same technique onto harder white water. The thinking of the athlete needs to be long term and not just about getting on big water asap what ever the cost.

I think part of the success of a club like Stafford and Stone is the fact that their paddlers develop great technique on easy water first. It also needs to be remembered that some of the injuries can be very damaging not only in terms of the physical aspects but also mentally which can inhibit future performance. These injuries can also be a competitive career ending event. WHAT IS THE HURRY. Take small steps upwards and you can get where you want to go instead of falling along the way.

[JimW]

I think we have the same broad idea then, although our reasoning may be slightly different.

When it comes to recognising how many paddlers in top divisions don't have good white water or gate technique I don't have the slalom experience to identify them so I'll have to beleive you.

Clearly there are some who do have good technique for harder courses, which usually seems to be attributed to having started on them earlier than others.

The bottom line seems to be that paddlers still progress at different rates and in different ways so no system can be perfect for everyone.

[davebrads]

On the question of training and racing on hard white water, I think that there are very many paddlers in div one and Prem who do not have good white water and gate technique due to to fast a progression. If they do not have a very good level of accuracy and control on easier water then how can they have it on hard white water. Too fast a progression without competence on easy water first simply ingrains bad technique. A ambitious paddler needs to emulate what the top paddlers in the world are doing technically, but on easy water first. Once they can do that then move that same technique onto harder white water. The thinking of the athlete needs to be long term and not just about getting on big water asap what ever the cost.

Thank you Jim for clarifying and putting into words something that I have been thinking about for quite a while now. I also think that there is another disadvantage to racing on harder water before the paddler is reasonably comfortable in that environment, and that is that they won't be racing, they will just be surviving and trying to complete the course. They can do this more effectively in training as they have more time on the water and the opportunity to repeat sections and moves. Learning how to race is a skill in itself and is probably best developed on courses where the paddler is reasonably able to control the boat.

[stevepearson]

A strategy could be to look at how many paddlers will make an event full or 90% full to make it viable. then work out how many paddlers in the division will go to that event - for example 100 in the Div may only be 60 racing.

Obviously it will need to consider all classes & then there is the impact of how you choose who goes in what division; this could start with prem & percentages. this is likely to be complicated

Then how do promotions & demotions work?


So the point of this feed is simply to identify that even if someone had time to workout how many people should be in a division, and that events were viable then it would be difficult to maintain - perhaps why we are where we are.


Maybe nicks comment earlier in the feed about making it harder to get promoted is the right way forward - simple & effective, then just demote a number at the end of the season. Just need to agree how many in each division - perhaps the basis for a motion at AGM??

[davebrads]

That is pretty much my thinking. Slow down promotion by adjusting percentages and promotion targets, review division sizes at the end of each year and introduce more aggressive end of season demotion together with some end of season promotions to balance things up.

There will be some knock-on effects, if we get a balance that suits the more popular events then less popular events will be undersubscribed. We could allow those events to run division 1/2 races, something that has been deprecated in recent years. I think the numbers should be balanced so that the most popular events are still oversubscribed, it would be bad to be in the situation that these events don't fill up, but that should allow everyone the chance to get an entry to some races even if they aren't able to plan their year in January, and allow promotees some chance of racing before the season's over.

[jjayes]

I am not sure how promotion and demotion works now, but it used to be by looking at larger gaps in points obtained in each division and then also considering how many people were viable for each division in terms of a club organising a event and not loosing money.

[djberriman]

I'll be one of the first to go based on performance over the last couple of years for various reasons. So having declared my interest here goes:-

It appears you are proposing to demote people to correct the size of divisions not based on their ability in many cases but on the simple fact events are oversubscribed. Those people will then either a) become VET meaning no difference in size of division b) race at the lower division stiffling promotion and get promoted back quite quickly as currently happens c) give up in many cases meaning we will lose volunteers. You'd have to demote a fair number of people to make any real difference.

I'm not sure simply demoting people is the right idea, surely finding ways to get more paddlers down the river is the answer, it seem we had much bigger entries in the past when things were done without all the modern tecnology we use now. Shouldn't we be looking at using divisional paddlers as judges like happens at Chapel Falls thus removing the need to have paddling judges thus freeing up slots, look at shorter intervals between paddlers, perhaps ensuring we can paddle over lunch (this will require more volunteers so everyone does get a lunch break).

Surely we should look at adding (back?) a division between 1 and 2 made up of the bottom of div 1 and the top of div2, div1 then focuses on harder events at harder courses to challenge those paddlers and up the standard before prem, the new division focuses on the current div 1 courses and the harder div 2 courses, pitching itself where perhaps div 1/2's are now and div2 focuses on some the easier div 2 courses making for an easier stepping stone from 3 to the new division.

[djberriman]

Just another thought, perhaps we can get every event to declare when it was declared full and how many where on the waiting list on the day of the race.

At the moment I don't think we know how big the problem is, do we need to make space for 20 extra paddlers or 100? Without these details you are taking a stab in the dark as to what is required.

[djberriman]

PPS Don't forget each division includes a number of paddlers who never race, never get demoted and simply get reranked in the same division. Its actually an advantage not to race! The person who does a couple of races and doesn't get enough points gets demoted!

For 2015 it appears there were 39 in Div 1 K1M for instance out of a total of 172 ranked paddlers at the start of the season.
For 2014 the same figures are 35 our of 156
There are 147 paddlers in Div 1 K1M this year for comparison

It would appear therefore about 22% (1 in 5) of ranked paddlers never race. Perhaps people should get demoted if they don't race and aren't injured?

[davebrads]

Just another thought, perhaps we can get every event to declare when it was declared full and how many where on the waiting list on the day of the race.

I'm not sure that data will be that useful, some people aren't entering because the events are full before they get to thinking about it, and then they don't bother entering of course. However I don't think the division is that much too big, a reduction of ten extra in each class over what we would normally demote might do it, if we can promote some to prem it would have to be even less. I think that it will have to be a stab in the dark though, an educated guess I would call it, and if we reduce the size too much it can be corrected the following year. I wasn't aware that we used to assess the viability of the divisions as JJ says, but that is what I have independently come to think we should be doing now.

I know demotion is an emotive subject, and you are right in that we might lose paddlers permanently, but I know that we have already lost long-standing paddlers as they can't get entries any longer so it's six of one and half dozen of the other.

Surely we should look at adding (back?) a division between 1 and 2 made up of the bottom of div 1 and the top of div2, div1 then focuses on harder events at harder courses to challenge those paddlers and up the standard before prem, the new division focuses on the current div 1 courses and the harder div 2 courses, pitching itself where perhaps div 1/2's are now and div2 focuses on some the easier div 2 courses making for an easier stepping stone from 3 to the new division.

That is effectively what I am trying to get to, to strengthen div 2 so that you get full events on harder courses (like it was in the old days). Division 2 always used to be the natural home for the <ahem> more mature paddler who couldn't or didn't want to devote enough time to training to race in division 1. At the same time do something similar with division 3 so that these events become more viable too, with a higher level of competition.

[Dee]

Just another thought, perhaps we can get every event to declare when it was declared full and how many where on the waiting list on the day of the race.

At the moment I don't think we know how big the problem is, do we need to make space for 20 extra paddlers or 100? Without these details you are taking a stab in the dark as to what is required.

These figures could be misleading.

I had so many cancellations that by paddlers on the waiting list had assumed that they wouldn't get a place and therefore made other arrangements for the weekend. So for each cancellation I took multiple paddlers off the waiting list.

I still think, however, that the oversubscription is nowhere near as bad as it seems but is, in part, down to panic buying of race places. Ironically, if all organisers followed the rules and refused refunds it could ease the situation as a number of paddlers might think twice before booking in to events way into the future.

[Toomuchtooyoung]

It really is bizarre that we are debating the issues caused by a sport being too popular. My son races slalom because he loves it , he doesnt have Olympic aspirations, but always strives to do the best he can. Surely we should be exploring how to increase opportunities to race. Anyone involved with other sports knows how difficult it is when people young and old don't have the opportunity to play /race competitively, try coaching a rugby or football team who haven't had a chance to play a match for a few weeks, because of water logged pitches. Slalom is a tough sport which takes courage, is it any wonder that it attracts people, especially young people who want to challenge themselves at every opportunity.