Restructuring the divisions

[JimW]

45 second interval.

If control can cope, this should not pose any problems for the paddlers.

If the target time for winning K1M is 95 seconds, they would catch someone who takes 140 seconds, or 147%
Duncan's ranking database on this website lists the % behind the winner that every paddler finishes, so we can easily dip in and and see how often paddlers have P > 147%.

I see very few results over 147% for clean runs so it is unlikely that it would lead to many more catch ups.

[BaldockBabe]

The minimum time you can allow between runs in most classes is 50 seconds. The reason being that the rules state that paddlers must have a minimum gap of 45 seconds. You cannot control the exact moment that a paddler goes over the start line so if you run at 45 seconds intervals every other paddler would be entitled to a re-run (if impeeded) as the start times would be less than 45 seconds.

Also, it is not always catch ups in the eyes of the public that are an issue. These are relatively easy to resolve especially if the paddler that is caught up complies with the rules and pulls aside (you won't believe how often that does not happen - but that is for the paddler behaviour thread), but the issue is more that there can be multiple paddlers in a single section which becomes difficult for the judges to deal with.

Solutions to the Div 1 "problem" that I can suggest:

1. More Div 1's - though this means more organiser and more high standard venues. It would be nice to find more of these venues such as the Washburn and Tully that have water and are financially viable in the summer months. I would support a few more events IF we got more people to help throughout the year with event running/ judging and timing and could source good venues for the summer months.

2. Ditch practice runs - this results in more time for timed runs.

3. Reduce start intervals to 40 seconds - trust me, at the lower end of the division this is more hassle than it is worth. The Interclubs are a prime example of the carnage that can result. Amusing to watch from the side-lines but not so fun for those that are giving their best but are disrupted by others.

4. One event weekends - I understand that this used to be the case in the past. It would need to be mixed up so that sometimes the K1M are on the Sat and sometimes the K1W are on the Sat etc etc. Mix this in with team runs and (if we want to go the way with ICF is planning to go) and kayak cross. The later has an advantage of very few volunteers being required compared to team runs. I agree that you should have to judge on the alternative day and I think strictly enforced rules should be introduced for those that do not turn up for their judging spot.

[BaldockBabe]

Sorry - post above should read 50 seconds not 40!

[stevepearson]

1. More Div 1's - though this means more organiser and more high standard venues. It would be nice to find more of these venues such as the Washburn and Tully that have water and are financially viable in the summer months. I would support a few more events IF we got more people to help throughout the year with event running/ judging and timing and could source good venues for the summer months.

Wouldn't this option just mean more races with less capacity?

Perhaps with more races then more promotions - will this issue then be pushed further up the pyramid to Prem in a couple of years.

I agree with your other options

[djberriman]

Ditching practice runs - I assume this means both official and unofficial as to do one without the other would be very unfair. If both were ditched I believe it would have a negative effect on the sport in many ways. Be careful what you wish for.

[Debs]

Ditch practice runs.

I thought about this and think it's a good suggestion, but only for div 1.
Paddlers in div 1 are working their way up the division and preparing for promotion to prem where they do not get a practice run, perhaps div 1 should be the same? Something they can get used to and learn how to prepare yourself without being on the water? To me it seems sensible to learn these skills in div 1 so you enter prem more prepared and skilled enough to compete as a premier paddler.

[Patrick]

If the number of Div1 K1 Men is too high, we could split the division.

At the start of the season organise DIV1A a selection race.

The top 50 finishers (or however many you want) Div 1 K1 Men are selevted for DIV 1A, and can enter the DIV 1 events on the calendar and compete for promotion to Prem, anyone who misses the race or finshes below 50th, goes into DIV1B, and must score 900+ at a Div 2 race to be moved up into DIV1 A.

Practically speaking, if you aren't in the top 50, are you going to push for promotion that year?

[ZakFranklin]

My experience of having been at every level of event, from Division 4, 3 and 2 coaching up to Prem racing is that the standard of racing in the last few years is definitely increasing and at a good level at the moment. Watching racing at a division 2 level last season, I was surprised at how good the level is and a lot of the people racing were competent enough for more difficult water than Cardington or the Nene, that didn't mean that the water limited the quality of the racing. I think that is part of the problem with the culture in British Racing and I have been bad for it before, but just because the water is smaller doesn't mean the race is worse it is more about the quality of the competition you are racing against. The French, would have top paddlers competing on water that many would say is not difficult enough to run a Division 1 on, but I think that sometimes this can make for the best racing. I'm not sure what my point is here but I think I would say that I have seen little evidence of people paddling on water above their standard in Division 1 or paddling up in Prem, a kid I was coaching last year was only placing in the top 15% at division 2's yet did demos at the British Open and comfortably was capable of completing the course that was set.

Anyway, in terms of fixing division 1, would removal of official practice not increase capacity fairly dramatically immediately? I would increase the size of prem by approx 60 paddlers across the categories and if needs be perhaps introduce a semi-final, final format if needs to be to accommodate this increase, where you have to place in the top 50% or something to qualify for a second run. I understand that this is a drastic step but I think it is preferable to spreading the classes on different days, more potential entrants to a race would also decrease the necessary entry fee and also supply more volunteers to help run the races in the form of parents.

Also in terms of being in the top 50, the first girl to be promoted out of division 1 this season was in division 3 at the start of last season so would have had no chance of placing in the top 50 as she only got one div 1 entry last year. (Edit, only just seen that you were specifically referring to Kayak men, in which case you probably do need to be in the top 50)

[ZakFranklin]

I am also slightly concerned with the state of division 3, there were a couple of races we attended last year as a TID group where we were 75% of the entries or so, I'm not sure the race would have been able to be run without us attending.

[AndrewG]

If the number of Div1 K1 Men is too high, we could split the division.

The top 50 finishers (or however many you want) Div 1 K1 Men are selevted for DIV 1A, and can enter the DIV 1 events on the calendar and compete for promotion to Prem, anyone who misses the race or finshes below 50th, goes into DIV1B, and must score 900+ at a Div 2 race to be moved up into DIV1 A.

I know, it's those pesky K1 Men, we need to find some way to stop there being so many competitive K1 Men, the problem is definitely this class.
Just looking at one race (I know, not statistically valid) from Tully shows that the percentages of paddlers making 130% of their class winner's time were as follows:
C1W 42%
C1M 48%
K1W 59%
K1M 81%

Clearly too many competitive K1 Men compared to the other classes.
This looks bad enough but when you consider the following:
a) the K1M class fastest time was 0.5 of a sec slower than the fastest Prem K1M entered as an official (there were 3 Prem K1 M entered)
b) K1M had 6 paddle ups of which 5 were within 130% of the class winner
c) if you look at the % of paddlers completing 2 runs without a single 50 you get: (caveat: I was not there so have assumed that there were less than 25 gates)
C1W 0%
C1M 17%
K1W 41%
K1M 68%

Alternatively maybe we should promote more Div2 K1 Men (from the bottom of Div 2?) to bring down the overall standard of K1 Men in Div 1.
Oh wait, that's not going to help the over-subscription of races issue, back to the drawing board........

[AndrewG]

How do you delete a post on the forum?
I would like to withdraw my last post above.

What I really wanted to say was in response to the idea that there a too many K1 Men is that although the idea to "thin-out" the number of K1 Men is a good one, I think that we can do even better.

It has become apparent to me that the high number of paddlers in Div 1 is due to too many right-handed paddlers (no, I have not been throwing a ball to all of them this season to observe which hand they catch it with and therefore I do not have the relevant figures to support this view, but it must be true, 100% of the people in my house that paddle are right-handed).
If we could get all right-handed paddlers to compete for the right to stay in their division this would give scope to reduce the numbers further.

[JimW]

It has become apparent to me that the high number of paddlers in Div 1 is due to too many right-handed paddlers

To the contrary, the C1 stats from Tully are partly down to the number of left handed paddlers unable to work out how to make the cross in the middle section whilst staying high enough to take the gate on the left of the wave.... including locals who train on it regularly

Also at least 1 of the 6 paddle ups was demoted last year (hadn't understood about the possibility demotion and didn't do enough races) and made the paddle up both days - he shouldn't be too long getting back into Div 1, as long as he can make enough races this year. Oh yes, one of the Div 2 officials was terrible, I think I did make all the gates, but not on the same run, and I may need to include official practice - I learned a lot.

[JimW]

The minimum time you can allow between runs in most classes is 50 seconds. The reason being that the rules state that paddlers must have a minimum gap of 45 seconds. You cannot control the exact moment that a paddler goes over the start line so if you run at 45 seconds intervals every other paddler would be entitled to a re-run (if impeeded) as the start times would be less than 45 seconds.

....

Some useful insights there, I wondered if it might cause organisational problems!

Do we need more hours of daylight, or to run div 1's over bank holidays (Yes Scotland is a problem, we don't even have the same bank holidays from city to city) and spread them over 3 days to allow bigger entry?

[Dee]

1. More Div 1's - though this means more organiser and more high standard venues. It would be nice to find more of these venues such as the Washburn and Tully that have water and are financially viable in the summer months. I would support a few more events IF we got more people to help throughout the year with event running/ judging and timing and could source good venues for the summer months.

Would be nice to see some Summer div 1s but water levels on natural courses tend to be too low and artificial courses tend to be ££££ as it's prime time for rafting.

2. Ditch practice runs - this results in more time for timed runs.

Not so long ago there was a thread complaining about lack of water time in the higher divisions. There is currently quite a leap between div 2 and div 1 and, whilst that remains, I believe we need practice runs. (FWIW, and I know it is only one event, but I don't think ditching practice runs at Sheppy would make a heap of difference as we need would probably need to delay actual runs anyway to reduce the risk of having the weir changed mid-runs)

3. Reduce start intervals to 40 seconds - trust me, at the lower end of the division this is more hassle than it is worth. The Interclubs are a prime example of the carnage that can result. Amusing to watch from the side-lines but not so fun for those that are giving their best but are disrupted by others.

On some courses 45/50s at div 1 might work, but on a lot it won't and before long we will be seeing a thread about catchups and how we need more time between paddlers to avoid them! And we'd have to build in time for allowing for the reruns that could occur.

There used to be a rule that there had to be 3minutes between classes - don't know if this is still the case?

4. One event weekends - I understand that this used to be the case in the past. It would need to be mixed up so that sometimes the K1M are on the Sat and sometimes the K1W are on the Sat etc etc. Mix this in with team runs and (if we want to go the way with ICF is planning to go) and kayak cross. The later has an advantage of very few volunteers being required compared to team runs. I agree that you should have to judge on the alternative day and I think strictly enforced rules should be introduced for those that do not turn up for their judging spot.

We used to have more one event weekends - they were comparatively poorly attended as paddlers preferred doubles. No one wanted to travel long distances for a single event.

I don't think it is reasonable to insist that paddlers judge on a day on which they are not competing as you are effectively forcing them to pay for an extra nights accomodation. You are also making it impossible for those that work one or other of the days to compete at all.

Also this doesn't really increase capacity overall. It increases the number of race places at a given competition but as each competition would become a single rather than a double, we would be halving the number of opportunities to race!

[Dee]

Increasing the number of Div 1 Events:

Let's assume, just for now, that we have enough organisers, timing team, section judges et al......and we come to locations.

Looking at this year we have:

Shepperton
Llandysul
Grandtully
HPP
Trweryn
Pinkston
Washburn
Tees Barrage

If cost were no object we could also use Cardiff and Lee Valley, but not only are these too expensive but there are indications of other courses (HPP) going the same way. I believe that the first three are effectively free, but the rest incur a charge (a bit of a guess in some cases)

So it makes sense to use the first three a bit more, BUT these three are less controllable and we are at the whims of the weather gods. They may not always give us the water we want or expect.

As an example: this year at Shepperton, as many will know, we started practice on Sunday morning with only two weir gates (and two side spills) open. What fewer people will be aware of is that there was some discussion as to whether or not the Div 1 would be allowed to go ahead with these water levels as it was felt that they were not really suitable for a div 1 race. (This was felt to be a border line call and as such the div 1 would probably have continued). However, we had a weir change part way through official practice (not ideal timing, I agree) which gave us the three weir gates that was deemed suitable. (So suitable for div 1s that large numbers of div 2s decided not to race as for them it was too difficult!).

So some suggestions, I haven't seen:

• Take more risks with expected water levels - ie book div 1s at venues that are cheap but slightly risky and then go ahead regardless of water levels (assuming they are safe). This could lay open the possibility of a second div 1 at Llandysul, Grandtully, Shepperton in October when water levels are often coming up again. The water might not be quite a good as we'd like but it won't make much difference to the outcome of the race.
• Extend the season. Start racing late January, finish late November - again this could alow us to use some sites twice, and some of those "too expensive" sites could be cheaper out of rafting season
• Be more flexible with the calendar. In the "olden days" when everyone relied on their year book for notification of race dates; it made sense to have a fixed calendar. Nowadays we have the internet (I know this cos I'm using it now); we have a web site (Thanks Nick); we could use twitter; we even have these chatter boards. So why not allow extra races to be slotted in as appropriate. Then when Scotland, say, has a wet august (should I say wetter than usual) and river levels are up; hey everyone we are going to put on a one day special div 1 in two weeks time. Book online and come along. Granted numbers might be lower but we could do something so that these events only carry, say, 80% of normal points.