Restructuring the divisions

[Toomuchtooyoung]

Llandysul already run a Div 1 in October, in which they try to accommodate as many people as possible. Given you've identified so few low cost venues, is it not time for the governing body to get involved, negotiate access and the fixing of gate infrastructure to make it easier to run events elsewhere?

[jjayes]

The extortionate prices being charged by some slalom venues is obviously becoming a large factor in limiting the slalom training and events that can be held at them.

These courses have been built on the back of slalom competition and money from slalom funding bodies has been used to build them. Now the venues are being handed over to private companies to profit and effectivly used for publicly subsidised corporate entertainment amongst other things.

I fully understand that they need to be financially viable but I feel the balance is now wrong given the the sport of slalom was used so much in their promotion in order to gain public funding to build them.

Is it not time to bring this to the media and public attention before its too late and slalom is unable to afford to use them. It would seem a good time to make a very big noise about this as what is happening is totally wrong and attempt to reverse this trend?

A major protest at one of these venues while they are running a corporate entertainment event should gain a lot of attention from the media. A possibility of protesting during the next royal of celebrity visit would also be effective.

Alternatively we could sit back and watch some more city gents doing their cooperate rafting events while the gates are well out of the way on the river banks!

[Dee]

Llandysul already run a Div 1 in October, in which they try to accommodate as many people as possible. Given you've identified so few low cost venues, is it not time for the governing body to get involved, negotiate access and the fixing of gate infrastructure to make it easier to run events elsewhere?

Hope you didn't take this as a criticism of Llandysul?! The risk with October is that it can take time for water levels to come up after the summer, though Wales is admittedly wetter than further east
My suggestion of extending season still stands, perhaps we could fit in three at Llandysul?

Note: the low cost venues are my guess and nothing more.

Note 2: if by governing body you mean the Slalom Committee, remember that they too are volunteers and probably don't have any more time than the rest of us, though they possibly have a bit more clout!

[CeeBee]

This is just a thought to throw out there. How about,

1. not all categories run at a Division 1 e.g. a Division 1 could be K1M, C1M and C1W say but not K1W
2. A Division 1 class runs alongside a prem race e.g all the prem categories plus K1W Division 1. The Division 1 class would still get practice runs and this would actually help as it would let Premier paddlers racing first see a class go down first.

I don't think you could take K1M away from a Division 1 or add K1M to a premier due to the size of the class but it might work for the other categories. (Or maybe you could if you remove a prem category)

In terms of Division 2 races, Grandtully always used to run as Div 1/2 to allow paddlers to paddle on more challenging water on the way to Div 1. I think this was a great idea but recent numbers have meant that Grandtully is now run without the Div 2.

[JimW]

Note 2: if by governing body you mean the Slalom Committee

I'm pretty sure Jim means the BC(U) Access Committee, its why they claim to exist.

[JimW]

Whether there is a political change in access law or not, there still needs to be an organisation prepared to set up and run sites, i.e. a local club.

So if we start off by thinking about sites that used to be suitable slalom courses, and then work out if why they ceased to be used (landowner withdrew access, local club disappeared,....) maybe we can identify some possibilities?

I've only done slalom for about a year, but the old courses I know of are:
Dee - Mile End Mill (new training gates last year, but the site is up for sale so who knows what the future may hold there?)
Dee - Serpents tail
Dee - Town Falls
Dee - Trevor Rocks (saw this for first time last year, didn't look big enough for div 1, but I seem to recall its where the first UK slalom was held?)
Awe - not sure where but others know. Dam release, not sure how powerful it is, been a long time since I've run the Awe. Should be a WWR event on it on Saturday.
Tees - Abbey Rapids?

Thats all I can think of - I must have paddled through more thsan that over the years?

[andy n]

And Tryweryn - fantastic river that has previously hosted events across all divisions with 5 separate race sections - Stilling Basin, Graveyard, International Site, Chapel Falls and Bala Mill.

[JimW]

I thought there were still events on the Tryweryn - probably not all 5 sites though?

Do the Graveyard, International and Chapel Falls sites overlap? If not would it be possible to run 2 split class races simultaneously, say K1M C1W on Graveyard Saturday, Chapel Sunday, and K1W C1M on Chapel Saturday and Graveyard Sunday? Would need 2 timing teams and lots of judges, but possibly only one set of catering and parking volunteers?

[lesf]

Abbey Rapids - as I understand it the issue is having someone willing to run it. We (Yorkshire Slalom) have considered running events here, but not an easy place to set up and we are already running 4 events a year (Washburn x 3 and Tees Barrage) as well as many of us running our own club's events.

Tees Barrage is pricey, but not as much as LV and HPP, and they are keen to see events there. The cost is such that a Prem /1 or a double div 1 is affordable, so there would be scope to have more races there. I'm just sorting dates for 2017 (!)
Given the need for more Div 2's on harder water I've been looking budgets to run a Div 2 at Tees Barrage - but it doesn't stack up financially for Div 2, even with the potential £500 grant, I'd need to have a significantly enhanced entry fee to break even (for Div 2 its a combination of lower fees and fewer paddlers that make it non-viable).

Having more races at Div 1 also has an impact elsewhere - the more div 1 weekends there are, the more it takes volunteers away from lower division events. If I'm running or racing at a Div 1, I'm not available to run/help at a Div 2,3 or 4 event, and I'm not able to take and coach club paddler at these level events. Yes this assumes that I will go race at additional races - but I will want to as I'm in the sport to paddle (running races is just something I do to fill empty weekends - lol). If me and others who do the same are not doing that, the lower division numbers could drop away and solve the over-subscription of events at the top end in a few years time!

[davebrads]

Having more races at Div 1 also has an impact elsewhere - the more div 1 weekends there are, the more it takes volunteers away from lower division events. If I'm running or racing at a Div 1, I'm not available to run/help at a Div 2,3 or 4 event, and I'm not able to take and coach club paddler at these level events. Yes this assumes that I will go race at additional races - but I will want to as I'm in the sport to paddle (running races is just something I do to fill empty weekends - lol). If me and others who do the same are not doing that, the lower division numbers could drop away and solve the over-subscription of events at the top end in a few years time!

Absolutely. I don't see any organisers calling for more races, or any non-organisers putting themselves forward. If those people calling for more races to solve the problem also put their name to running a new race next year then I might believe that it could be made to work.

And Tryweryn - fantastic river that has previously hosted events across all divisions with 5 separate race sections - Stilling Basin, Graveyard, International Site, Chapel Falls and Bala Mill.

7 sites - we used to run a div 3 alongside the campsite, and there used to be a div 3 above Bala Mill. The latter is apparently a non-starter these days because we are an eyesore to the residents of the big posh house on the hill opposite, but the campsite course could make a come-back if the new campsite owners are more amenable than the last lot.

Dee - Mile End Mill (new training gates last year, but the site is up for sale so who knows what the future may hold there?)
Dee - Serpents tail
Dee - Town Falls
Dee - Trevor Rocks (saw this for first time last year, didn't look big enough for div 1, but I seem to recall its where the first UK slalom was held?)
Awe - not sure where but others know. Dam release, not sure how powerful it is, been a long time since I've run the Awe. Should be a WWR event on it on Saturday.
Tees - Abbey Rapids?

As I understand it we probably won't have a race on Town Falls again because of safety concerns, but I am reasonably sure that Llangollen Town Council would have us back in a flash if we could find a way around it. Serpents Tail isn't necessarily lost altogether, but it would take some serious negotiating and recruiting the help of the council to persuade the hotel owner to let us back. However I haven't got the time or inclination to do it, and I don't think that Manchester has the resources these days to put the course up. It used to take a team of at least 15 people, most of whom would have to be well versed in course erection to get it up, and most of these people would have to give up a day of their annual leave to do it.

There are other lost races too, Stangerthwaite on the Lune, Appletreewick on the Wharfe and Halton Rapids also on the Lune to name just a few. However these sites suffer with the same logistical problems that face the Serpents Tail and require a large commitment from the organising club.

[Dee]

And there is all the lost races on thames weirs too, my memory's not long enough, but Hambledon and Windsor spring to mind. No point in looking back; we have to look forward!

[Dee]

Having more races at Div 1 also has an impact elsewhere - the more div 1 weekends there are, the more it takes volunteers away from lower division events. If I'm running or racing at a Div 1, I'm not available to run/help at a Div 2,3 or 4 event, and I'm not able to take and coach club paddler at these level events. Yes this assumes that I will go race at additional races - but I will want to as I'm in the sport to paddle (running races is just something I do to fill empty weekends - lol). If me and others who do the same are not doing that, the lower division numbers could drop away and solve the over-subscription of events at the top end in a few years time!

Adding in extra races to the calendar is not as easy as it seems for this very reason. At Shepperton we ran a Div 1/2 this year, but it was way oversubscribed and a lot of the div 2s found it too hard. So for next year we are considering running two separate events on adjacent weekends. However, this creates problems with calendar clashes; we can't run a div 2 to clash with Llandysul div 1 as we a) don't want to lose helpers and b)will be relying on some div 2s coming from Llandysul to make it viable.

This brings me back to season extention - if we can run the div 1 a week earlier we can run a dedicated div 2 in our "normal" slot.

Why is the season limited from March to October; what is wrong with November, December, January, February?

[Dee]

I have received an email from someone who does not want to post on the boards themselves but is following the discussion and asks:

I wonder if anyone has considered running Div 1 events along the lines of international event structure? i.e. Preliminary run - where you could have far more entries; Semi-final with far fewer; Final - top ten.

Has anyone? Would it work? I think we'd need to change the rule book.

[BaldockBabe]

Why is the season limited from March to October; what is wrong with November, December, January, February?

It is too fecking cold to sit on a riverbank judging/ timing/ coaching/ waiting to paddle in March and October let alone in November - February!!!

[Dee]

Why is the season limited from March to October; what is wrong with November, December, January, February?

It is too fecking cold to sit on a riverbank judging/ timing/ coaching/ waiting to paddle in March and October let alone in November - February!!!

And it's not too cold when it's snowing in May