Promotion from Div 4 to 3 for inquorate classes

[CeeBee]

Currently, promotion from Division 4 is as follow -

1 paddler in 5 is promoted where the race is quorate (an event is quorate with 3 or more more competitors).

Additionally even when the events are quorate, C1, K1W and C2 are promoted when their modified score would have earned promotion in the K1M class. The modified score is calculated by dividing by 1.12 for K1W, 1.08 for C1M and 1.2 for C1W and C2. E.g if a K1 women had a best time of 112, then their modified score is 100. If 100 would have been promoted in K1M, then the K1W is promoted. (fortunately Ken Trollope's program works all this out for the organiser).

Until the end of 2014 modified scores were used for Div 4 C1W and C2, but not for C1M or K1W where raw scores were compared. This was deemed inequitable, and modified score was applied to all classes (ACM 2014 Item 6.5). The rule is there to avoid the absurdity of not promoting an unusually good paddler just because their class is unusually good or, more likely, inquorate. But making the rule follow modifed scores can make promotion to Div 3 absurdly easy, especially if the K1M field is weak. We have seen cases where every Div 4 paddler in C1 or K1W was promoted.

So, would the clubs back a proposal to remove modified scores at Division 4? Promotion would still be 1 in 5 where the class is quorate. So, promotions would mainly be affected for inquorate classes.

Most Divisions 4s run alongside Division 3s and so it make little difference to racing opportunities, If they do a couple more races in Division 4, they will get better and then get promoted as they will be fast enough compared to Div 4 K1M. Often some of the paddlers are just trying out C1 and C2 at a starter race and this would also have the benefit of them not having to apply for a bib too early either.

The rule would change to -

For Division 4 an event is deemed to be quorate if 3 or more competitors start. (See Rule UKC5.1)
K1 Men: 1 in 5 (or part thereof, if quorate)
K1 Women / C1 Men / C1 Women / C2 : 1 in 5 (or part thereof, if quorate), or when the Competitor’s raw modified score would have gained promotion in the corresponding K1 Men’s event (modified scores are defined in B4.2.2),rounding down to the accuracy of the event.
In all cases where two, or more, paddlers are tied on best run scores for the last promotion place from Division 4 then all such Competitors are promoted.

[CeeBee]

Slight tweak - It occurs to me that if the K1W class is quorate, it would be fairer for Div 4 C1W to be promoted if their raw score would have been promoted in K1W rather than K1M.

[HPPaddle]

I don't think this is a good idea at all. We need a flow of paddlers coming into the sport. The numbers are not huge for Div 3 this year, so I'm not sure why we should be concerned that occasionally a weak paddler gets into division 3 (A very strong K1M div 4 paddler can equally prevent promotion of perfectly good K1W div 4 paddlers, its swings and roundabouts). Surely we should be welcoming as many paddlers as possible into division 3, giving them a early pat on the back for being interested in the sport, and welcoming them into the ranking system. Lets keep the door open and not close it unnecessarily.

[JimW]

I am pretty sure I have seen exactly what CeeBee is talking about (might have been her club's event), where div 4 K1M had 1 or 2 very unready entries, and all of K1W were promoted as well as one of the K1M.

To be fair on the same weekend I beat both div 3 K1M (the winner was in a creek boat, the other was promoted the previous day) in C1 (before modification) and so did all of the K1W (some before and some after modification), so it is not just div 4 where inquorate events can throw up anomalies.

I wonder if it is better instead of comparing to K1M when K1M is inquorate, to compare against another class which is quorate (preferring K1W first, then C1M, C1W and finally C2), so if K1W is quorate and C1M isn't, the modified C1M scores would be x1.12/1.08 and compared to K1W. If K1M is not quorate, and K1W is the K1M times should be x1.12 and compared to K1W. If only C2 is quorate then K1M times would be x1.2, K1W x1.2/1.12 etc.

Which doesn't address what to do if no classes are quorate.
How about apply the modifications to all times (taking K1M at 1.0) and rank all classes together, and then select the top 1 in 5?

[Nick Penfold]

Just for historical perspective: the "one in five" promotion pattern goes back to the Nineties (and beyond) when all promotion except Div 1 to Prem was based on 1-in-something. One in five was the criterion for promotion from Div 5 to Div 4 in a six-division sport. When we cut down to five divisions the novice promotion criteria were never revised. Perhaps they should have been. At that time K1M was pretty much always present in numbers likely to make comparison sensible, and the other classes often inquorate, and it made sense to promote a C1, K1W or C2 that had achieved (unadjusted) a K1M promotion time.

[CeeBee]

I don't think this is a good idea at all. We need a flow of paddlers coming into the sport. The numbers are not huge for Div 3 this year, so I'm not sure why we should be concerned that occasionally a weak paddler gets into division 3 (A very strong K1M div 4 paddler can equally prevent promotion of perfectly good K1W div 4 paddlers, its swings and roundabouts). Surely we should be welcoming as many paddlers as possible into division 3, giving them a early pat on the back for being interested in the sport, and welcoming them into the ranking system. Lets keep the door open and not close it unnecessarily.

We do indeed need a flow of paddlers into the sport. I don't this this motion discourages this at all and actually may well encourage them. The majority of Div 4 races are also Division 3 so this doesn't affect the races they enter. If they get promoted before they are ready, they will spend a long time at the bottom of Div 3. If they paddle a couple of races before being promoted there will not be such a big gap when they race in Division 3. No paddler wants to finish at the bottom of the race and certainly doesn't want to be way slower than those they are racing against.

By staying in Division 4 for longer, they pay Division 4 race fees which are less than Division 3 and don't need to pay £9 to apply for a bib quite yet. They can also paddle under BCU junior Club membership and SCA day membership before being hit for annual membership fees. Also, for Division 4 C2 and C1, many of our paddlers are just dabbling in this for a bit of fun and so easier to manage if they stay in Division 4 until they want to progress through the Divisions. If they are good enough to be promoted in K1M, then promote them, otherwise wait until they improve. So, if there are 17 Division 4 men, 4 will be promoted to Division 3. The other classes if they are inquorate only need to be faster than the K1 man who comes 4th.

[CeeBee]

don't think this is a good idea at all. We need a flow of paddlers coming into the sport. The numbers are not huge for Div 3 this year, so I'm not sure why we should be concerned that occasionally a weak paddler gets into division 3 (A very strong K1M div 4 paddler can equally prevent promotion of perfectly good K1W div 4 paddlers, its swings and roundabouts). Surely we should be welcoming as many paddlers as possible into division 3, giving them a early pat on the back for being interested in the sport, and welcoming them into the ranking system. Lets keep the door open and not close it unnecessarily.

We do indeed need a flow of paddlers into the sport. I don't this this motion discourages this at all and actually may well encourage them. The majority of Div 4 races are also Division 3 so this doesn't affect the races they enter. If they get promoted before they are ready, they will spend a long time at the bottom of Div 3. If they paddle a couple of races before being promoted there will not be such a big gap when they race in Division 3. No paddler wants to finish at the bottom of the race and certainly doesn't want to be way slower than those they are racing against.

By staying in Division 4 for longer, they pay Division 4 race fees which are less than Division 3 and don't need to pay £9 to apply for a bib quite yet. They can also paddle under BCU junior Club membership and SCA day membership before being hit for annual membership fees. Also, for Division 4 C2 and C1, many of our paddlers are just dabbling in this for a bit of fun and so easier to manage if they stay in Division 4 until they want to progress through the Divisions. If they are good enough to be promoted in K1M, then promote them, otherwise wait until they improve. So, if there are 17 Division 4 men, 4 will be promoted to Division 3. The other classes if they are inquorate only need to be faster than the K1 man who comes 4th.