Boat Weight Rules

[IDL]

If this rule change was for the benefit of the majority within the sport then fine - but it is not- it is for a very small minority at the elite end of the sport.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of paddlers in this sport already paddle boats that are over 9kg, simply because the vast majority of paddlers are not in Prem.

[DavidDickson]

I think you'll find that the vast majority of paddlers in this sport already paddle boats that are over 9kg, simply because the vast majority of paddlers are not in Prem.

Most of the paddlers I see in lower divisions are not paddling battered old boats and under the 8kg rule they have the choice to buy a lighter boat if they are fortunate enough to be able to afford one. Under the new 9kg rule - over time the average boat weight will most likely rise to nearer 10kg as repaired 9kg boats are passed on in the 2nd hand market.

This rule is not being introduced to balance boat weights across the divisions - it is being brought in purely for split boats at the elite end of international competition.

I suspect the rule change was driven by influential people from the Southern Hemisphere who have lots of clout with the ICF.

[BaldockBabe]

I suspect the rule change was driven by influential people from the Southern Hemisphere who have lots of clout with the ICF.

Although there could be some element of truth in that I think that is a bit harsh to say. Many of the non-European competitors have two boats, one based at home and one in Europe (usually stored with the manufacturer or friends) in order to reduce the chances of damage during transit. This is not just at senior level, one of the parents of an u23 paddler was telling me how is daughter's boat was written off in transit during last season which left her with the one boat which she was worried about taking home again but she had no choice.

In 2015 for the j/u23 Worlds in Foz the British team had to fly a convoluted route to Brazil because they could not get their boats on a direct flight and (if I recall correctly) even when they got Brazil their boats had to go by road to Foz. The Australian team had to fly via Europe as that was the only way to get their boats to Foz economically. I don't know but that may have been the case the year before when the J/u23 Worlds were held in Sydney too. With the worlds planned in Rio next year and presumably in Tokyo and other legacy venues in the future this is likely to become more and more of an issue.

The Vets who are looking at going to the Vet Champs in NZ this year are struggling to get an airline to either take their boats or do so at a reasonable price. Some are looking at sending via freight and possibly selling their boats in NZ.

Even at a more domestic level I have seen j/u23/s and vets from P and 1 posting pictures of their training in the UAE/ NZ over the past few winters. Thus, we are not just talking about some seniors from the Southern Hemisphere being impacted, it is all ages from a wider pool. In reality it is likely to get worse - it was hard enough 5 years ago getting an airline to take a plastic boat to Nepal and more and more airlines are refusing to take plastic boats let alone longer, more fragile, composite ones.

Though I accept at 2,3,4 level they are unlikely to be flying internationally but they are also unlikely to have an underweight boat and are unlikely to have it checked unless at a Pan Celtic or paddling up.

[JimW]

I kind of agree with Davids point about boat weight and paddler weight - I'm back to 114kg (thanks Christmas) and my K1 which is a low spec construction, large style boat in XXL sizing is I'm sure well over 11kg, probably nearer 12 after the latest repairs (thanks Symonds Yat), but to me it weighs hardly anything. Compared to shouldering a plastic river boat or OC1 it is still very light in my perception. An 8kg boat would make some difference to me but it will be hard to determine on the water because I am adding so much of myself that even my enormous boat wallows in the current.
On the other hand I see tiny year old kids at the entry level of the sport struggling to carry Scuds and Smurfs which almost certainly are as light as 8kg because there is only 3/4 as much of them as there is of my boat - the boat might be 20% of their body weight, mine is only 10% of mine, and would be over 25% of theirs. It just isn't proportionate. If they are struggling to carry it, they are almost certainly going to struggle to accelerate and turn it on the water.

Are we all familiar with the following rule (note that the new rules aren't online yet so I hope this is still valid):
"*C7.1.3
Except at British Team and Squad selection races, all
whitewater boat types may compete without regard to boat
specifications, provided the boat meets all applicable safety
requirements as defined in Rule 19"

I would suggest that in addition to rule 19, rule 7.1.4 should also always apply as a safety requirement when disregarding the rest of 7.1:
"C7.1.4
All boats must have a minimum radius at each end of 2 cm
horizontally and 1 cm vertically"

So are division 1 races considered as selection races? Do junior team members get selected on the basis of div 1 results?

As an aside we had the opposite problem in kite buggy racing, small kids were using heavy buggies so they could use much bigger kites than they could safely handle, the KBA eventually decided to cap buggy weights at 60kg, which was still heavy enough for some of the smaller kids to be flying overpowered, but for the heavyweights like myself it was a challenge to make a buggy stiff enough to go fast within 60kg due to our own weight making it flex in the middle - as it happens a few of us were already looking at larger diameter tubes to increase stiffness and it is no co-incidence that I ended up with the 3rd Tornado MkII with the larger siderails Beaches aren't always smooth and flat on race day - if the wind has been offshore whilst the tide was in we could be hitting some pretty large ridges and craters at 30mph+, you really want confidence that everything is going to stay together....

[Canadian Paddler]

Quote from 2017 Rule Book (indetation does not look too , so added soume leading dots, and colour on one sentence, but you can read the sense

C7.1.1 Measurements
All types of K1 Minimum length 3.50m
. . . . . . . . . .Minimum width 0.60m
All types of C1 Minimum length 3.50m
. . . . . . . . . .Minimum width 0.60m
All types of C2 Minimum length 4.10m
. . . . . . . . . .Minimum width 0.75m
UK (At Divisions 2 to 4 minimum length and weight restrictions do not apply, all other limitations apply)
C7.1.2 Minimum Weights of Boats.
. . . . . . . . . .All types of K1 and C1 : 9 kg
. . . . . . . . . .All types of C2 : 15 kg
During the weighing process, residual water must be removed from the boat.
UK (The minimum weight of the boat may include air bags)

SO beginners do not need to worry about boat weight, and can continue to use short, light boats. You do not need a 9Kg boat until you get to Division 1 (or paddle up at division 1).

By the way the online rules are generated from the rules as proof-read for the yearbook. Thanks to Ken Trollope's hard work in putting it together, and various proof readers, this is almost complete.

[James Hastings]

Glad to hear that the new weight rule will not apply to divs 2 to 4. Not sure why it is being applied to div 1 to be honest - I can't envisage why many of them would be involved in international competition.

On a totally different subject, it has just occurred to me that an unintended consequence of the portable points system could be that it becomes easier to get promoted. If the top paddlers in each division below prem paddle up regularly they may well decide to do less races in their own divisions, thus allowing less good/fast slalomers (like me!) to get better results in their own divisional races.

It would be ironic if a consequence of the portable points system was that div 1 became even more bloated relative to the other divisions!

[paddlerparent]

I've never seen anyone measure a boat at any race, yet i have seen people race in competition (and win by the way) & race in prem in a boat that doesn't conform to the min boat sizes - i wonder if the size of the boat will be policed too going forward?

Or as perhaps i feel - it really doesn't matter that much unless its a selection race!

[DavidDickson]

The Vets who are looking at going to the Vet Champs in NZ this year are struggling to get an airline to either take their boats or do so at a reasonable price. Some are looking at sending via freight and possibly selling their boats in NZ.

Even at a more domestic level I have seen j/u23/s and vets from P and 1 posting pictures of their training in the UAE/ NZ over the past few winters. Thus, we are not just talking about some seniors from the Southern Hemisphere being impacted, it is all ages from a wider pool. In reality it is likely to get worse - it was hard enough 5 years ago getting an airline to take a plastic boat to Nepal and more and more airlines are refusing to take plastic boats let alone longer, more fragile, composite ones.

I believe a group of 20odd paddlers from the UK flew to Wadi in UAE this last Boxing day for a training camp - I also believe all flew with full length boats

I know of two slalom paddlers who are currently training in NZ who flew via London - both took their full length boats

Split boats will still be open to damage when transported and will still take up the same volume of space on the plane.

The World Master Games take place every 4 years and going on previous events will most likely have a very small represntation from each travelling nation.

UK (At Divisions 2 to 4 minimum length and weight restrictions do not apply, all other limitations apply)

SO beginners do not need to worry about boat weight, and can continue to use short, light boats. You do not need a 9Kg boat until you get to Division 1 (or paddle up at division 1).

This is good news and needs to be communicated well as I don't believe it is common knowledge within our slalom paddling community.

I also agree with James that this rule should not be introduced at Div 1. Just looking at Div 1 K1 women - of the 64 left in the Division at the end of 2016 - 25 (39%) were J14 or younger. Is forcing them to weight their boats to 9k really going to help them develop as paddlers ? Surely that should be the aim of Div 1 as a developing division.

[JimW]

I believe a group of 20odd paddlers from the UK flew to Wadi in UAE this last Boxing day for a training camp - I also believe all flew with full length boats

I know of two slalom paddlers who are currently training in NZ who flew via London - both took their full length boats

Split boats will still be open to damage when transported and will still take up the same volume of space on the plane.

I've been flying (or not) with shorter plastic boats for years and the only thing that is for certain is that it is different every time. Each airline has it's own baggage rules which they change at short notice without telling passengers who booked before the changes, and every check-in clerk and their supervisors apply the rules differently.
In 2001 I flew to and from San Francisco with no problems at all, the check in clerk coming back wanted to ride my boat down the conveyor for fun but it was loaded with light camping kit to reduce no of bags. Most of our group were with a different airline and ended up paying an excess outbound because they arrived at the airport at different times, coming back they stacked 12 boats in the check in area and didn't have to argue for long before the clerks waived the excess to get the queue moving again.
In 2003 3 of us flew to Seattle, apparently there wasn't room on our flight for all the boats so we had to hang around Seattle for 24 hours waiting for mine to arrive on the next flight (in fact when we went back I discovered it had been sent via Jamaica and actually arrived about 4 hours after us, but staff at Seattle weren't told about that).
In 2004 I flew to Las Vegas. As usual the agent failed to add to my ticket notes that I was taking a kayak, I got from Glasgow to Gatwick no problem (technically I should have paid excess there because it was a different airline to the transatlantic leg), at Gatwick I had to check in again and I was taken out of the queue to go to a different counter to pay excess for my boat, which was not unexpected and should have been £60 according to what we had found out in advance. At the counter I was told that the excess on that route had been increased to £90 and that I had to pay double excess for a kayak - £180. A friend arriving separately on the same flight had managed to speak to someone at the airport when booking his ticket and made a note of their name, as a result of that they only charged him double the original excess (£120). 2 others arriving separately had their boats in surf board bags and claimed they were surfboards, surfboards were 1/2 excess so they paid £45 each - all 4 of us were on the same flight. Coming home we arrived en-masse and put the lightest boats at the front of the queue so they didn't need to weigh them all - no excess was charged.

Just because someone has succesfully flown a boat on a route with a certain airline is no guarantee that the next person will be able to.

With respect to the volume of the boat, of course the boat still takes up the same volume, but baggage restrictions have a maximum length which is one of the main sticking points. When bags are loaded onto aircraft they are loaded into special containers in the hold which are designed to absorb an explosion (an extra security measure they don't need to explain to you), apparently these containers are all the same size even though different airlines specify different limits (or there might be a couple of sizes, but they are standardised). Longer baggage can usually be carried subject to there being enough extra space in the hold but they have to be checked more thoroughly, usually by hand instead of by a scanner, so it is reasonable for there to be a surcharge to the airport for this. It is also beleivable if domestic carriers with smaller aircraft claim they can't carry anything over length at all, although they are usually the most helpful.

I don't bother flying with plastic boats for river trips any more, I just arrange to hire at my destination. Obviously for a competition you want to be in a boat you are familiar with so taking your own is much more important.

[Mike Mitchell]

So we have changed the rules so that a few paddlers can get there boats on a Plain.

In the 80s I remember before boat weight restrictions got introduced.
Boats got measured in length and width.
We also got BA fitted with the appropriate weight and put into a Tub for flotation.
Helmets got scrutinised.
Not sure if anyone actual got disqualified?

I recon at selection Lee Valley this year and at the British Open there will be NO Split Boats.

I also recon that any paddler with a split boat for traveling, will also have Standard boat for training and racing when they can.

So are we really going to enforce this rule and if so are all the other rules going to be enforced.

Could be a long time at the finish line.

Sorry but I got a new boat last October and its under weight, so i will need to go on a diet if i have to add weights to my boat.