Superfinal Format at Prem Races

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Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby Nick Penfold » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:15 pm

What do you think of the Superfinal format at Prem races? It’s been put to me that, with most paddlers getting their places and points from the second qualification run, the first run is little more than a practice unless you aspire to a place in the final – and most paddlers know they won't make it.
International competitions work this way, but internationals always have semis and finals, and half – or more - of the competitors go through to Semis, so everyone is trying for a Semis place.
Would the format be more satisfactory if non-finalists were placed on their best qualification run?
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby RobM » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:33 pm

Hi Nick
There isn't time to run heats, a semi final and final in the same day with 200 competitors.
Having a final with 10 in each category and 2 minute intervals was good for TV who could film whole runs, but it did seem to drag.
Feedback received for second runs was that changing the start order to reflect first runs times was very exciting - however the downside was we had at least 3 catch ups and re-runs were required, when top prem paddlers who had a dud first run and then chased down paddle ups
Points from second runs only seemed unfair, and suggest that the super final format is good, but those not reaching the final should get their points based on their best of 2 runs.
Rob
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby Mark H » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:17 pm

If events want to run a final that's fine but make the race the best of two runs with an extra run for the final. Give points on the two runs and an extra prize for the winner of the final. Let's make booking accommodation and planning easy for all.
People might even volunteer for judging or other duties if they know they won't be paddling on the Sunday in a final.
Or they can go home. One run and a final is a waste of time and money for most. If finals are going to be run then run them for seniors, U23 and juniors after all it's not only the seniors that race abroad. Sport for all not just the top 6,10 or whatever number is flavour of the month. Keep it simple make it enjoyable.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby CeeBee » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:53 pm

I think it is fine to have an A and B final with however many paddlers you want in the A final. But, the best of the 2 runs should count for the B final and the A final could either be the best of 2 runs or the final run only as their first run was still a counting run as it enabled them to qualify for the final).

If there were 50 paddlers with 2000 points max, then the points would be
1st 2000, 2nd 1960, 3rd 1920, 4th 1880, 5th 1840

11th 1600, 12th 1560, 13th 1520, 14th 1480

Only those in the A final can get the top set of points and those in the B final getting the lower set of points e.g.
So, if say 10 qualify for final A, then those in the A final could get 2000-1640 points and those in the B final could get 1600-40 points i.e. the best position for the winner of the B final would be 11th.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby harratts » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:01 pm

Hi all,

I did bring this up (points for paddlers who do not make the final should be worked out using the best of their two runs) in the discussions which preceded the vote at last years ACM but can't recall anyone else in the room thinking that it should be included as an ammendment to the proposed Super Final Race Format.

Perhaps I did not explain myself well enough or people had not fully understood the race format that was being proposed well enough.

Steve
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby CeeBee » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:22 pm

It can often be difficult to explain until people see it in action. Always worth experimenting with formats at occasional races to see what works and doesn't work. I like the idea of A and B finals but would always want there to be B finals so that those who are developing get the same racing opportunities as the better paddlers. The format at the weekend for Junior selection on such a hard site where mistakes are so easily made and punished was tough. The juniors should all have had a second run with the best run counting.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby paddlerparent » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:40 am

Format is understandable but points allocation is rubbish (in my view).

I agree with a lot of posts - points should be based on best of 2 runs for those that dont get to the final not just 2nd run - then finalists in the order of the final.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby andy n » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:52 am

There seems to be fairly broad agreement about what is good and not so good about super-final races. If the Czech model is considered it should suit everyone.
All paddlers take Run 1 in bib order. Top 10 progress to super-final (maybe less in small category?)
Non-finalists take 2nd run in bib order. Their result and ranking points are based on best of the two runs.
Finals are run in reverse order of qualification to the final (best boat last). Results and ranking points are based only on the final run.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby Nick Maingay » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:43 am

There seems to be broad agreement in the replies to this and from all those discussing it on the river bank. Without wishing to repeat things, Andy Neave's post above sums it up.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby paddlerparent » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:41 pm

We need a like button :)
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby Mark H » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:24 pm

Yep Andy hits it on the head. But that format wasn't voted on so can't be run this year.
I think we have all fallen into the same trap where common sense has clouded our judgment.
Well done to Sam boy done good :D
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby Nick Penfold » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:26 pm

The Czech model as described by Andy Neave sounds good, and time-efficient - and I understood it on one reading. If you want it, a club will have to propose it to the ACM.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby Arrowcraft » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:46 am

Mr Neave has it about right I think.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby Suzy Q » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:16 am

Agree with Andy Neave's post.
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Re: Superfinal Format at Prem Races

Postby Seedy Paddler » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:19 pm

I would suggest a modification to that, based on Final of 10 racers (should be modified to reflect the actual Class entry) top 7 qualify direct to Final from Run 1, remaining 3 places are awarded on the basis of Run 2 results. From 11th place down Ranking is based on best of 2 runs, for places 1-10 ranking is based on Final Run. This is closer to International where semi-final places are based on 2 opportunities for qualification.

The current format basically negates the first run for the majority of the racers and promotes risk taking, whilst what we should be developing is consistency.

Craig D
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