Online Entries - The Future - Have your Say?

[jezrix]

Jezrix said
We'd like to use online entries for 2018 for all the slaloms we run. I did make inquires as to whether we could take out insurance for financial loss, but didn't get anywhere. A better solution might be for GB canoeing to underwrite the online system for all events - the risk appears small and the potential loss would be limited to 4 weeks of event entry money hel

Of course there is alwayd rule D2.3.2

D2.3.2 If the accounts for a competition show a deficit, the organising group may make an application to the Slalom Committee who may consider giving limited financial assistance to
offset costs necessarily incurred.

Not guaranteeing the profit, but covering the loss.

Mmm. 'May consider' doesn't sound too reassuring I'm afraid - especially if applications for assistance had been received for several events! A commitment to waive the event levy in the case of entry money being lost would probably cover enough of any loss to make the risk acceptable (in Yorkshire Slalom's case). Do you think that's something the BC Slalom Committee would consider?

Dee mentioned in her post on 8/05 that that she thought that, if entries were paid by credit card, individuals might be able to claim the money back from the credit card company - I'm going to look into that first. Much better if losses are covered that way than via British Canoeing.

[Dee]

Although I do understand where you are coming from, I think you are in danger of blowing the risk out of proportion - obviously this is a personal viewpoint with which I fully accept you may disagree.

- Stripe are governed by the FCA
- It is a requirement that customer money is kept separate from Stripe operating money, so, even if Stripe went bust the customer funds should remain in tact.

I think, therefore, that we are talking about major fraud pushing Stripe into bankruptcy, and even in these circumstances I believe that we would still expect to retrieve a proportion, at least, of the funds.
I think the risk is probably considerably smaller than someone losing the cash and cheques through theft from their vehicle, prior to it being banked.

Life is not without risks - canoeing certainly isn't! We all weigh up risk vs reward everyday. We take a risk when putting on a competition that we will get enough entries to cover costs. We take a risk every time we get in a car, a plane, a train or even just out of bed. We trust club treasurers and organisers to pay in all takings including cash. We take risks when paying into pension schemes (or not as the case may be). We take a risk when we allow our children out on their own for the first time or even to have a bath on their own (but I can just imagine the look on you sons' faces, if you said you were going to supervise them in the bath ). We take a risk when we make an online purchase. All the paddlers that have used the system were taking a risk that it was genuine (especially early on).

Do the gains of the online entries outweigh the possibility of a tiny risk? - as an organiser I have to say yes and it looks like others agree.

I could potentially shave a couple of days off of the four-week holding time, but it really is not going to make any real difference and nothing I can do to the system is going to change the risk that you perceive. So, at the end of the day, I think you, along with the yorkshire slalom committee and the organisers, will have to take your own decision on risks vs rewards. You might not even all agree with the final outcome, but I honestly don't believe that we can do anything to make a real difference

[Canadian Paddler]

In my experience on the committee 'may cover' has meant that losses have been covered, except when bumped up to include buying new poles and other such capital equipment, or when there is not much backup for the loss. So you are pretty safe.

AND there is a committee meeting this Saturday, and Yes this is on the Agenda (amongst other topics lifted from this Bulletin Board), as Dee syas the risk is small, but the effects are large for a club. Also depends on how many honest paddlers would pay their entry again if they can claim it back from their Credit card. Unfortunately I suspect a smaller number if the loss is covered by 'The Committee' rather than those poor blokes running the event.

As British Canoeing as a whole now provides no money to slalom as a volunteer sport, I am not overly hopeful of them guaranteeing the payments, but it is worth a try, again this will be raised at the meeting.

[Dee]

CP
If you need any info from me pre-Saturday then let me know, though I suspect there is not much more I can provide other than that already provided.

[BaldockBabe]

I am pretty sure the Credit Card guarantee is only on purchased over £100. This seems to be backed up here http://www.moneysupermarket.com/credit- ... rotection/

However, I agree that the risk is small and as a sport I don't think we should be using valuable funds in effectively acting as a guarantor for an FSA governed institution. If the risks worry you - enter by post.

[HPPaddle]

Hi Dee,

Apologies if this is already covered above. Where I think the system could do with a tweak is how it manages paddle up applications, if the paddler is promoted to the host division before the deadline. It would make sense if an early paddle up application on the waiting list could be converted to a host division application when the new bib number comes in. Currently, you have to go to the back of the queue when you are promoted.

Otherwise the system is great.

Thanks

[Dee]

Hi Dee,

Apologies if this is already covered above. Where I think the system could do with a tweak is how it manages paddle up applications, if the paddler is promoted to the host division before the deadline. It would make sense if an early paddle up application on the waiting list could be converted to a host division application when the new bib number comes in. Currently, you have to go to the back of the queue when you are promoted.

Otherwise the system is great.

Thanks

It doesn't do this at the moment for a few reasons, but key is that there is actually nothing in the rules that says or implies that a paddle up entries can be converted to host entries in this way. So, at least in theory, to keep the original paddleup entry date for the new host entry would be against the rules.

In order to do this, I need a motion to be raised and passed at the ACM to the effect that the original entry date is to be retained for the new entry..

[CeeBee]

Dee

Are you busy!

We've just run at Div 3/4 and Scottish Schools event. The Saturday morning is always chaos as so many entries come in on the day for Div 4 newcomers who take time to fill in a card. It would be really useful if we could have online entries for Div 4. (We will do online entries next year for this event if possible).

PAYMENT
We would like the option to accept payment on the day once they have entered as really we just want the entries in to get a start list compiled and only want to charge them if they actually turn up. We are happy to do this for the Div 3 paddlers too so we get the entries in advance - we find some paddlers pay in advance and others give us the entry cards or e-mail that they are entering and we then get the payment on the day - could this be an option that organiser select when the event is set up?

MEMBERSHIP
The paddler could enter their SCA/BCU number so we would have a record and we can then check the SCA/BCU cards on the day and take payment for day membership if they are not a member. All Div 4s would therefore have RTC for membership proof.

ADDITIONAL DATA INPUT
We would need more data entered for Div 4 paddlers since it wouldn't automatically pick this up from the bib information e.g. club and yob. (A by product on online entries for Div 4 is that this would give us data on Div 4s which could be useful for sending these paddlers information or 'congratulations' when they get promoted.

ADDITIONAL NON RANKING CLASSES
We would also like the paddlers to enter the Scottish schools classes for K1M, K1W, C1M, C1W and C2 - these are all paddlers who are ranked above Div 3. They are charged the same single fee as Div 3 for the first Scottish Schools entry (they are only charged £3 for each extra Scottish Schools class).

And lastly, a nice to have would be for the paddlers to be able to enter their school name and whether this is a primary or secondary school when they enter the event. We have a club,primary school and secondary school trophy. We can do this bit manually if this is too much extra work.

[Dee]

Dee

Are you busy!

We've just run at Div 3/4 and Scottish Schools event. The Saturday morning is always chaos as so many entries come in on the day for Div 4 newcomers who take time to fill in a card. It would be really useful if we could have online entries for Div 4. (We will do online entries next year for this event if possible).

MEMBERSHIP
The paddler could enter their SCA/BCU number so we would have a record and we can then check the SCA/BCU cards on the day and take payment for day membership if they are not a member. All Div 4s would therefore have RTC for membership proof.

ADDITIONAL DATA INPUT
We would need more data entered for Div 4 paddlers since it wouldn't automatically pick this up from the bib information e.g. club and yob. (A by product on online entries for Div 4 is that this would give us data on Div 4s which could be useful for sending these paddlers information or 'congratulations' when they get promoted.

I've been at the Sheppy 3/4 all day so do sympathisewith this.

There are a number of reasons why we don't tackle div 4s at present not least of which is that I think the amount of work involved is not justified for the number of div 4s that will enter in advance. I think it is unlikely that we will add them for next year, but may think about it for 2019. In the meantime, organisers can add div 4 entries to the systemso that they know their entry has been received.

PAYMENT
We would like the option to accept payment on the day once they have entered as really we just want the entries in to get a start list compiled and only want to charge them if they actually turn up. We are happy to do this for the Div 3 paddlers too so we get the entries in advance - we find some paddlers pay in advance and others give us the entry cards or e-mail that they are entering and we then get the payment on the day - could this be an option that organiser select when the event is set up?

Probably not:
- most of the transaction fee goes straight to stripe but a small (pennies) proportion comes to us to pay for things like hosting. We do need this income to run the system.
- the whole premise of the system works on the basis that an entry must be paid for to become accepted, the change sounds simple but would be quite a major overhaul.
If we go ahead with div 4 entry it might be possible to do it for them as they would be outside the current process, but I'm not sure.
You can of course keep the entries open until the last minute so people could decide and enter on Friday.

ADDITIONAL NON RANKING CLASSES
We would also like the paddlers to enter the Scottish schools classes for K1M, K1W, C1M, C1W and C2 - these are all paddlers who are ranked above Div 3. They are charged the same single fee as Div 3 for the first Scottish Schools entry (they are only charged £3 for each extra Scottish Schools class).

One option to this is to add an open and state in your text that open entry is restriced to Scottish schools entries only. Your ranked paddlers can then enter the open.
We have added an open to Llandysul for panceltic and junior champ entries and this seems to work well.
(Note: the system will not prevent non-valid entries, but realistically if you state eligibility then it's up to paddlers to check - I might add an option for organisers to add eligibility text to the entry page itself).
The first entry pricing should be fine, you can set it to whatever you like on the system. The discounts for additional classes is like multiclass discount so I will see if I can bear it in mind when we look at how we code that to give you the flexibility to add it to the open entries. (Though the multiclass discount is going to be pretty tricky as it is).

And lastly, a nice to have would be for the paddlers to be able to enter their school name and whether this is a primary or secondary school when they enter the event. We have a club, primary school and secondary school trophy. We can do this bit manually if this is too much extra work.

I'm not sure that there is justification for adding something so specific. However, there is an option to add a sponsor to an entry - this is free text and appears in the start list along with the club; it can be edited by the organiser. I think you could ask paddlers to add their school as their sponsor for the race. This is not controlled like much of the entry so some will forget and you might get some variations due to abbreviations, but hopefully would provide a good solution.
Llandysul asked paddlers to do this for junior champs and it seems to have worked as far as I can see.

The downside is that it ends up in the club column rather than in additional column as neither Simply Slalom nor the siwi timing system have anywhere else that it can go.

Would this work do you think?

[JimW]

You can of course keep the entries open until the last minute so people could decide and enter on Friday.

I have one provisional div 3 entry who will need to look at the course on the Saturday to decide if they are happy to enter or not, I suspect there may be others embarrassed to admit as much who will just turn up and enter on the day if they are feeling brave enough.

Most clubs in these parts take a more relaxed approach to div 2, 3 and 4 entries than the rulebook stipulates in order to try to encourage a bigger entry.... I suspect we will struggle to fit with online entry for that reason.

[Dee]

Flexibility at div 3/4 is always going to be key. Even to the point of paddlers putting in additional entries half way through the day. Equally these events are, usually smaller so managing cheques etc is less problematic.

It's why our initial target was prem/1s.

We have used the system for lower divisions at Sheppy. The benefits are reduced but it did help as a significant proportion of div 3s did book in before, albeit only a couple of days before, but, even if we did add div 4s I'm pretty sure that most will still enter on the day.

The benefits of online entry are therefore always reduced at lower divisions and some may, quite reasonably, feel that they are better off without.

[Dee]

I'm wondering whether we could take a different approach to div 4s along the lines of providing an option to "tell the organiser you are coming". I will give it some thought.

[Patrick O'Hara]

I'm not a fan of the "tell the organiser I'm coming" option. It wouldn't have worked at Cardington 2/3/4 earlier in the month. We were full both days, unfortunately those people from any division who had not submitted an entry and paid in advance missed out. I really would urge consideration to be given to providing a facility for Div 4's to enter online with an automatic RTC to complete formalities on arrival.

[Dee]

How many div 4 advance entries did you get and did you get more turn up on the day

[CeeBee]

Happy for those clubs who don't want the 'tell the organiser I am coming option" to not do this. This could be optionally i.e. when you sign up for online entries, you can either allow this (which would suit CR Cats) or not allow this.

The period from 0930 till entries close at 1130 is absolutely manic and so anything we can do to take the pressure off would be greatly appreciated.

I'll check how many entered on the day and edit this post - off to do some exercise first!