C2 Structure for 2018 Season

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good

C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby harratts » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:38 am

Hi all.

As you know I am a big fan of the C2 class and would hate to see it be removed from UK based competitions as it has been from other more high profile competitions. For this reason I think that those of us who still participate in this class need to put forward plans on how it should be structured for the 2018 season and beyond which will need a formal motion to be submitted at this years ACM to be voted on by all attending club representatives.

This is better than trying to lobby support to vote down any other possible ACM motions submitted to remove the C2 class from UK competitions from next season should anyone be thinking that would be the way to go. I would be happy to lead on getting such an ACM motion submitted via any club who would be willing to support such a motion but I would welcome anyone's contributions on what such a motion should contain.

My initial thoughts cover three specific changes to the current C2 race structure and are as follows;-

1). Quorate / None Quorate C2 Class Races
The difference in ranking points secured by C2 race participants if dramatically affected by the current Quorate / None Quorate criteria. I would support the idea that this Quorate / None Quorate criteria is removed from all C2 races for the 2018 season and beyond. Participant C2 crew times would be compared to the event highest K1 Men's class at that event and ranking points awarded based on relative position within that K1 Men's class as is currently the case for any None Quorate C2 race.

2). Time Adjustment Allowance
Should point 1). described above was adopted then it would become more difficult for C2 crews to secure higher ranking points than is currently the case for events that are Quorate. i.e. Even the fastest C2 crew at any race would not gain the maximum ranking points from that race unless their time was fast enough when compared to the K1 Men's race results. On a more positive note should there be several C2 crew times considered fast enough when compared to the K1 Men's race results then they would all be awarded with maximum ranking points.

Under such circumstances I feel that it would be necessary to apply a Time Adjustment Allowance factor which is currently done for all None Quorate C2 races but not at the current time %'s used which are 20% at Div. 2 / 3 races & 10% at Prem. / Div. 1 races. This would appear to me (from the analysis of past race results that I have now completed) to be the wrong way around. It is much more difficult for C2 crews to gain good ranking points as the standard of the event K1 Men's paddlers increases.

My suggestion for C2 races for the 2018 season and beyond would be Time Adjustment Allowances of the following be used;-
20% at Prem races, 10% at Div. 1 races, 5% at Div. 2 races and 0% at Div. 3 & 4 races.

3). Event Participation
We have all recognised that the number of currently active C2 crews has fallen in recent times due to changes made external to domestic competition. The third element of my plan for the 2018 season and beyond would be to allow any C2 crew to enter any event they wished to. There may be two issues relating to this suggestion if adopted.

a). Very good crews may enter lower division races and take trophy's of lower ability crews at that event. Personally I am not sure that this would happen as how many good C2 crews would want to pay the entry money at a division 3 event to secure a maximum number of 250 ranking points. However even if they did it would have zero effect on the ranking points awarded to any other C2 crews at that event.

b). Not so good crews may enter prestigious events just to say that they had done so which would reflect badly on the C2 class as a whole at that event. I am not sure how best to control this but perhaps those C2 crews ranked as Prem. / Div. 1 at the end of this season (or have been in the past) could enter any race they wished to but those C2 crews who end this year ranked in Div. 2 / 3 could only enter higher level races when they secure the appropriate level of ranking points currently set at 2,250.

Sorry that this is such a long initial post but would welcome contributions from any interested parties and / or any club representatives who would be willing to propose such a motion at this years ACM.

Thanks for reading to the end.
Steve
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby lesf » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:30 pm

At a quick read these seem reasonable to me, but will reflect a bit more.

Regarding in 3b (not so good crews entering any race) this is probably more theoretical than likely. Currently any Div 2/3 C2 crew can already paddle up, I've not checked all the event results but its not happening.
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby Dee » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:18 pm

Caveat: I don't paddle at all and never mind C2, but I have been known to organise the odd race or two. So,

Re 3. Not 'any' C2 crew, but 'any C2 crew that is ranked or can apply for ranking based on the ranking status of the competitors in other classes can compete in div 3 and above'

As is currently the case any crew with one or more paddlers who is not currently ranked in div 3 or abover for at least one class can only compete in div 4. Promotion from div 4 as per current
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby Dee » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:41 pm

Other options that could be considered. Feel free to shoot down in flames:

Change scoring mechanism as suggested but have 4 divisions:
P, 1, 2/3, 4 then allow paddle down, this would allow weaker P/1s to paddle at 2/3 events and 2/3s at div 4s, but 2/3s could still not enter prems and true prems could not enter 2/3s. The true prems could still enter div 1 but not lower divisions

Or 3 divisions P, 1-3, 4. Paddle up but no down

Or. Accept that no true prems in C2 and allow ranked C2s to enter div 1/2/3 competitions only. No C2s at prem races

Or. Single division but Base C2 entry eligibility on highest ranking of pair in other classes and only allow paddlers to enter up to that division. So if both paddlers in div 2 kayak then they can enter div 2 races but not p/1if a paddler is in K1m prem then they could also enter div 1 races. (Could also base a Lower limit on paddler with the lower ranking)
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby Reformed Boy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:54 pm

Firstly, thanks Steve for rightly raising this matter and offering some ideas rather than just identifying the problems.

This is such an important time for C2 that we absolutely must get this right or risk killing off this unique class of our sport for ever.

To that end might I suggest that we continue this thread over the Summer and have some form of meetings at (say the BO at LV and the Barrage - one in the south one in the north).

We will need to see all the available data (ranking lists, results for 2015-17 (say), thoughts from organisers and a 'spoke' from each club (surely most clubs have at least one C2 advocate).

From those meetings we need to agree a final proposal for the committee AGM.

I strongly urge that we think imaginatively and are prepared to be quite robust about this as it is so important.

We have to do this right and get a long term plan that will revitalise C2 in GB.

What has happened to the SAVE C2 campaign?

How is C2 viewed and structured in other countries?

What could the manufacturers do to support C2 (and sell more boats...)?

I think the points ideas that Steve has put forward are a valid for later in the wider debate but the real issues (IMHO) are bigger than that.

So thanks again Steve (old bean) for raising this and let's keep on it 'cos if we don't no one else will.

If I survive the sharks, snakes, crocs and spiders in Australia over the next 5 weeks I'll be available to be involved in this.
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby WindsorCC » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:41 am

Thanks Steve for putting some structure around the general mutterings in various different threads!

I'd also like to give it some proper thought, but 100% agree that we should come to the AGM with a really solid proposal with as much backing as possible. I'll be at the Open so happy to join in a meeting.

Paul (and Ethan...)
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby Nick Penfold » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:23 am

Please give thought to the admin side.

C2 Prem/1 is a serious racing division, and in any case it's small and easily managed.

In Div 2/3 there are at most a dozen pairs who paddle together for more than a single weekend. The rest of the division - in most years around 130 boats - is made up of scratch pairs who get together for one race or one weekend, have no intention of racing together again, and in many cases don't apply for a bib and don't care about rankings. But Stuart is expected to sort out the mess and get appropriate points allocated to them all. You wouldn't believe how hard that is, partly because there are so many ways the same pair of names can appear from one race to another. It's not reasonable.

Most of the paddlers in C2 Div 2/3 are doing it for fun. Fun's good, and the last thing I want is to discourage it. But we need to do something about the disproportionate admin, and I think it's to make C2 Div 2/3 into an open, informal division without points and rankings. Prem/1 would remain as is, with "promotion" by showing John Woods your track record.
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby davebrads » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:07 am

As one of those dozen that race C2 over the season I would like to have rankings if possible. It seems to me that if we adopt the suggestion that Steve made in his post
harratts wrote:1). Quorate / None Quorate C2 Class Races
The difference in ranking points secured by C2 race participants if dramatically affected by the current Quorate / None Quorate criteria. I would support the idea that this Quorate / None Quorate criteria is removed from all C2 races for the 2018 season and beyond. Participant C2 crew times would be compared to the event highest K1 Men's class at that event and ranking points awarded based on relative position within that K1 Men's class as is currently the case for any None Quorate C2 race.

If we do this then surely this will reduce admin significantly? The ranking officer only has to award points to those who have applied for bibs, and there will be no readjustment of the points if someone applies for a bib at a later date.
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby jke » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:41 am

Hi Steve

Your point 1) Quorate / Non-Quorate. Totally agree. For example, a crew at Bala at the weekend in the middle of the results gained 300 points on Saturday and 16 points on Sunday, with similar times each day.

Gaining points purely on comparison with K1M would also alleviate the issue of having to race against C2s being paddled as C1s (particularly on the tighter courses). You would just be comparing yourself with the K1M.

Your point 2) Time Adjustment Allowance. Yes that needs to be changed. The adjustment needs to be set so that (the bulk of) the entrants fit somewhere into the K1M results. Not sure I understand your percentages for time adjustment unless you mean in addition to what’s current. For div 2 it should probably be nearer 40% and with div 3 staying at 20%. This needs some thought. It depends a lot on the course.

I think the current adjustment hasn’t kept pace with the fact that courses tend to be tighter these days, favouring the single boat.

In conjunction with both these points there needs to be consideration of promotion criteria. That can be set to whatever is sensible.

And just seen davebrads post. Yes agree.
John Kent
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby John Sturgess » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:34 pm

As so often in Slalom, I think we are over-complicating in the search for a mythical Holy Grail of 'fairness'.

Simple solution:
One division (so no issues about promotion etc); points by comparison to K1M. No need for adjustments, because no question of promotion. Bibs only to help judging. And it does not matter whether the class is quorate or not.
Let paddlers and/or their parents/coaches decide what races they will do: so no divisional definition required.
As to P/1 being a serious racing division, ask Ben & Finn: often the only boat!

Maybe not a bad idea for the sport as a whole?
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby harratts » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:48 pm

Hi all.

Thanks for all of the positive contributions made to this thread. I expected the support for the concept of "anyone can paddle at any event" from you Mr. Sturgess as deep down I suspect that this was the reason behind your original "paddle up" concept.

While I think that it would work for the smaller divisions, i.e. all C2's, K1 Vet's and C1 Vet's, I don't think that it would work for any of the other larger classes.

Races would just become events with no host division paddlers but open to the first 150 - 200 or so who could commit to putting in an entry. A free for all which I think needs to be avoided.

Steve
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby John Sturgess » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:55 pm

Sorry - that was just an afterthought - I did not intend to hijack the discussion on C2's.

However worth pointing out that the 'free-for-all' that you describe is how things happen for most races in France; and in Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Canada, the USA, Brazil .... in fact everywhere except in the UK
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby JimW » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:53 pm

The single division looks like a good idea.
I am a bit confused about international opportunities for C2 now, clearly ICF are still including them in word cups etc. but have BC stopped selecting them to GB team or is it simply that the GB crews all opted to retire when the class was pulled from the olympics?

Do we still desire to be represented internationally in C2 or is it going to be a for fun class in the UK?

The latter would seem quite bold, but I have heard many of the contributors to this thread opine that lack of just for fun paddlers is a fundamental problem for the discipline so maybe this could help in that respect also?

If we want international representation, is it going to be possible to select crews with such a system?
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby WindsorCC » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:50 am

Having had some time to ponder...

I'd like to see a combination of selecting C2 crews for international races, with a far looser performance criteria at selection, on a self-funded basis. No cost to the performance programmes, but would motivate crews to continue to race at the top of Prem (or top of the overall rankings, if we go to a single division).

I'd also support a single division or if there are concerns about spaces being used up at Prem races by C2s who aren't at an appropriate standard, two divisions - Prem and 1/2/3.

However, I really don't think there will be an issue with crews paddling above their ability. There are only a couple of crews racing at Div 1s, so I can't see a big rush for Prem water if it was open to all.

I'm wondering if another benefit of a single division is a steadier progression, rather than the current issue where crews get promoted into P/1 at small water Div 2 races, then it's a big jump in terms of water, course difficulty and for those of us in the South, distance, so stop racing. If it's a case of entering whatever races you like, there's scope for spending more time building experience before choosing to tackle Div 1 races.

I don't see a problem with higher ranking crews turning up at div 3/4 races, surely the more entries the better, and it potentially inspires others to give it a go. If we remove the quorum requirement and just base it on a percentage of K1M times, then it doesn't matter from a points perspective if you're first out of one, or third out of six. Only challenge might be prizes, as those are certainly motivational for juniors...

In terms of admin, how about if we say that scratch crews are ineligible for points, even if they subsequently apply for a bib? Maybe where a crew enters as scratch, as they just fancy a bit more racing, they are eligible for a prize but organiser doesn't even report points? Then Stuart is only managing points for those who've actually applied for a bib.

Paul.
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Postby Dee » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:15 am

How about no scratch crews at p/1 races. So anyone can compete at p/1 but only if they have a bib. Anyone can enter 2/3 (and 4?) but only those with a bib get points
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