C2 Structure for 2018 Season

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Dee » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:03 am

Nick Penfold wrote:You have to be ranked to use the online entry system at all, so scratch crews are excluded from online advance entry by default.
I'm currently working on div 4 Entries (far more complex than expected) but not div 4 C2s.....yet!
When/if I add in C2s could just treat all scratch C2s as paddle ups, giving ranked paddlers priority. If I managed scratch C2s at all then restricting entry in this way will be a piece of cake!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by JimW » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:06 pm

Dee wrote:
Nick Penfold wrote:You have to be ranked to use the online entry system at all, so scratch crews are excluded from online advance entry by default.
I'm currently working on div 4 Entries (far more complex than expected) but not div 4 C2s.....yet!
When/if I add in C2s could just treat all scratch C2s as paddle ups, giving ranked paddlers priority. If I managed scratch C2s at all then restricting entry in this way will be a piece of cake!
The problem is you will have scratch C2s where one or both paddlers is/are ranked in another class, and others where one or both have never been ranked at all - the latter obviously have to start in div 4, but some of the former may also have to start in div 4, and others can start higher up. It is going to be a headache!

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Dee » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:52 pm

JimW wrote:...... is/are ranked in another class, and others where one or both have never been ranked at all - the latter obviously have to start in div 4, but some of the former may also have to start in div 4, and others can start higher up. It is going to be a headache!
But, as I understand it the proposal is that any scratch pair will be able to enter any comp up to div2 which is actually easier than the current situation
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Reformed Boy
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Reformed Boy » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:55 am

There was talk about a bit of a heads together this weekend at LV and a follow-up perhaps at the Prem at TB - is that still going to happen and can someone feedback the headlines please.

SlalomMom
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by SlalomMom » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:30 am

There needs to be a general change in the attitude towards C2, competitors are being discouraged to compete, being told that it's not worth doing anymore. This was evident in the British Open when the semi final and final for C2 was originally cancelled and only reinstated after protest from some dedicated C2 fans, again this weekend at Bala Mill, despite 11 boats competing on saturday, there was only a prize for 1st place, correct me if I've read this wrong but on page 83 of the yearbook, ref C34.12 it states - " If there are 10 or more starters a second prize will be awarded". It wasn't adhered to probably because it is just the C2 class. However, at the same event, a first and second prize was given out for C1W when there were only 2 boats entered. I am really pleased to see that C1W is growing as it should and that those paddlers who participate are rewarded but is it at the cost of C2? There is room in the sport to have active participation in all 5 classes, it is just attitudes towards it that need to change

Nick Penfold
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:02 pm

ref C34.12 it states - " If there are 10 or more starters a second prize will be awarded". It wasn't adhered to probably because it is just the C2 class.
I doubt this was some sort of prejudice against C2s. I don't know the facts for this race, but scratch C2s in particular are very often last-minute entries. Organisers would need a very good crystal ball to foresee the need for a second prize in an event subject to many on-the-day entries and where such a big entry is rare.

SlalomMom
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by SlalomMom » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:41 pm

Agreed, in hindsight this was a very sweeping statement to make, and after looking at the online entries there were 7 boats entered previous to the race

Mike Mitchell
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Mike Mitchell » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:57 pm

SlalomMom wrote:There needs to be a general change in the attitude towards C2, competitors are being discouraged to compete, being told that it's not worth doing anymore. This was evident in the British Open when the semi final and final for C2 was originally cancelled and only reinstated after protest from some dedicated C2 fans, again this weekend at Bala Mill, despite 11 boats competing on saturday, there was only a prize for 1st place, correct me if I've read this wrong but on page 83 of the yearbook, ref C34.12 it states - " If there are 10 or more starters a second prize will be awarded". It wasn't adhered to probably because it is just the C2 class. However, at the same event, a first and second prize was given out for C1W when there were only 2 boats entered. I am really pleased to see that C1W is growing as it should and that those paddlers who participate are rewarded but is it at the cost of C2? There is room in the sport to have active participation in all 5 classes, it is just attitudes towards it that need to change

I didn't go to Bala and yes as Nick states there was probably lots of late entries.
Saying that organisers could always have a stash of Chocolates or Cakes just incase this happens.

The British Open. It was fantastic to see Two C2s a J14 and J16 at that. The highlight of the weekend.
I was personally horrified, disappointed when it was stated that they wouldn't be racing in a final on Sunday.
Glad someone came to there senses and reversed the decision.

If we are going to keep C2 going we need all the encouragement we can give these youngsters.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by JimW » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:11 pm

I suspect that as much as there is a problem in attitude towards C2 from some quarters, it is also a problem with the pressure paddlers are under, or putting on themselves, to improve in their other disciplines.
How many times have we heard C2 crews talk about taking a break or even splitting up to concentrate on their K1 or C1 for a bit?
Also when I look at C2 crews, I am often looking at paddlers who compete in K1, C1 and C2 - no wonder they struggle with finding time to train equally in all 3 boats, do we need to encourage paddlers to pick C2 as second boat rather than 3rd?

Reformed Boy
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Reformed Boy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:42 pm

We need to find a way to encourage a few crews to make it their FIRST option and wrap around support at all levels.
I know C2 looks bleak at the moment but that can change.
It was encouraging to hear the Tony Estanguet (sp) has made some very positive overtures regarding Paris Olympics and C2.
Even if it does drop off the Olympic calendar for a cycle or two, the Olympics aren't that important to canoeists compared to the World Champs and World Cup events that happen more frequently.
What if Slalom was dropped completly from the Olympics - after all it is only a relatively recent addition....would we scrap K1 and C1?

SilverSurfer
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Location: Nottingham

Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by SilverSurfer » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:29 am

It's highly unlikely that C2 will get the support at all levels whilst it's classified as a non-Olympic event. British Canoeing don't receive funding for any non-Olympic classes, it's therefore not in their interest to support it, as they have to maximise their medal winning opportunities to retain their funding, and ultimately their jobs. Sad but true.

None of the British Canoeing coaches will push the young kids trying to get on to the training programmes down the C2 route.

I agree we should still enter teams in C2 international races, but there will be little, if any support from British Canoeing - they've made that clear. I remember when we started sending C1W to the World Cup races, they had to get funding from their home nations not British Canoeing.

I think the only hope is that there is a serious push from people who can actually influence the sport, like Tony Estanguet to get C2 back in the Olympic Games. If it looks like it will succeed then (and only then) will British Canoeing start to invest in C2 again. The same thing happened with C1W, with the likes of Richard Fox started pushing it, originally there was little or no investment in C1W from British Canoeing, but then when it looked liked C1W would become an Olympic sport they started to invest, and the senior team are now reaping the rewards of that early investment, along with Australia.

For me there are two separate questions:

1. How do we keep C2 going in the domestic season
2. How do we get C2 back in the Olympics

I think this forum can only address the first point, and hopefully in doing so, should point two get any momentum then we would be in a good position to take advantage.

As to the point made:
Olympics aren't that important to canoeists compared to the World Champs and World Cup events that happen more frequently.
I have to disagree, the reality is without the Olympics there is no money, there are no funded programmes, and there are no full time athletes. Having said that, whilst there might be more kudos for winning the Olympics, I don't think It's the pinnacle of our sport, to win the World Championship is a far harder achievement, as you races against the best 3 boats of every nation, not just 1 boat. You only have to look at the Czech K1M, they have 4 outstanding paddlers, but only one can go to the Olympics. The French are the same, and they now race for other nations so they can get on a team for international events.

Would canoeing be a better sport if it wasn't in the Olympics, now that's an interesting question.

Mummsie
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Mummsie » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:54 am

The Olympics is THE pinnacle that the elite athletes strive for. It is the most important race for them and although funding rests on the results of the Olympics that is secondary to them, to be an Olympian and have the opportunity to compete and become an Olympic champion is the pinnacle of their career. However I do agree with SilverSurfer the worlds are much harder to win. Many countries have a number of athletes capable of winning that one spot and winning a world chamionships.

SilverSurfer
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Location: Nottingham

Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by SilverSurfer » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:26 am

Sorry, I don't agree the Olympics are the pinnacle, the World Champrionships are, win that and you are the best, that's what every althelete strives for, to be the best in their sport. Once the Olympics used to be the pinnacle of most sports, now it's just a commercial venture, and sadly carries with it more kudos than the World Championships in the eyes of the media, and funding to go with it.

You can't tell me a football player would rather have an Olympic medal over a World Cup medal, a tennis player would have an Olympic medal over winning Wimmbledon, or a golf player would have an Olympic medal over winning the British Open. Sorry the Olympics is not what it used to be for many sports, including canoeing, bring back 3 boats per class, then yes it would be the pinnacle.

Just a shame the direction of canoeing is shaped by the Olympics.

Mummsie
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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:46 pm

Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Mummsie » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:53 am

SilverSurfer I agree with you re football and all any of the properly professional sports bit you can't compare Canoeing with them....totally different and having had a slalom athlete go through Olympic selection many times, sometimes successfull and sometimes not I know just how important it is to them and not just because of the funding!!

They can win a world championships but that is forgotten really quickly and I agree to win is far harder and much more of an achievement, but win an Olympic medal names are remembered!! I would also like 3 boats back but that is unlikely to happen and I question whether slalom as we know it will continue as an Olympic sport, ere seems a definite push down the extreme slalom route.

BaldockBabe
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by BaldockBabe » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:47 pm

SilverSurfer wrote: You can't tell me a football player would rather have an Olympic medal over a World Cup medal, a tennis player would have an Olympic medal over winning Wimmbledon, or a golf player would have an Olympic medal over winning the British Open.
And that's why those "sports" shouldn't be in the Olympics! The sports in the Olympics should be those where the Olympic Gold is the pinnacle of that sport such as canoeing, athletics, gymnastics etc.

On the subject of C2 it is nice to see that MxC2 will be contested at selection next year. I think this is an excellent opportunity for new crews to work towards over the winter. It's unfunded but if they make team they will get invaluable start line experience.

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