C2 Structure for 2018 Season

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
djberriman
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by djberriman » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:14 pm

Why not just have an open event at every race for people who want to race C2 but with no formality.

WindsorCC
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by WindsorCC » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:31 pm

I think most C2 crews (me and Ethan included) who paddle together for more than one race do want some proper ongoing competition, rankings and to take it seriously.

Although there's certainly a place for more casual, fun racing across all classes, it would be a shame if that was the only option for C2, all of the back of it being dropped as an Olympic class. I think you'd end up losing the more regular crews, as there would be even less competition than currently, and I doubt it would encourage more casual crews as they can already turn up and race at most events as a scratch crew.

But, all ideas welcome as something needs to change for next season...

harratts
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by harratts » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:46 pm

I'm with you Paul and totally disagree with the comments made on the front page of this website sent to Nick Penfold by Nick Taylor in a private e-mail.

I like to enter C2 races for the challenge of racing against other like minded paddlers for the enjoyment it brings, the challenge of the race and for the ranking points that are available. If there were no ranking points on offer or a list to show relevant league positions based on those points then I would not bother.

If everyone is willing to adopt my original suggestions on how the C2 class should be structured for next season onwards then any C2 crew who competed could be listed in the results without that crew affecting the ranking points awarded to any other C2 crew in the race.

Ranking points and the league positions displayed on the Canoe Slalom website would then ONLY be for those crews who had applied for their race bib. Those that wanted to do so could then do so and those that did not wish to do so need not do so therefore reducing the current administration requirement of the C2 Bib officer.

Incidentally when I asked Stuart if there was a problem he advised me he was happy to continue in the current format so there was not really any issue with excessive administration for this class as far as he was concerned.

Steve

Nick Penfold
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Nick Penfold » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:11 am

So, to put this in a nutshell, Steve:
C2 Div 2/3 races would be open to all comers, and would get places and points calculated by comparison with other classes. But rankings would only be calculated for pairs who applied for bibs - although you could perhaps race first and apply for the bib afterwards.
Is that what you mean?
If yes, I suggest you put up a proposal at the ACM.

Dee
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Dee » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:29 am

Isn't this what should really happen anyway?
When you start racing in your new division, points will not be credited to you until you apply for a bib.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

WindsorCC
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by WindsorCC » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:52 pm

Dee, officially I think that's true, but unofficially it's assumed that if you apply for your bib quickly then the points will be credited. Perhaps if that's an admin issue then it would make sense to allow scratch crews with no expectation they need to get a bib. Formalising scratch crews at 2/3 would resolve at least some of the admin issues, and encourage more entries.

I'd support Steve's proposal that we remove the quorum and calculate points based on K1M times with a modifier.

I'd also propose that we merge 1,2 and 3, leaving Prem separate for the handful of crews who want to race at Prem events, and go for selection. At the moment it's quite a jump from div 2 to div 1 water, and I think we lose a lot of crews who get promoted and then can't race due to the step up in water (certainly the case for me and Ethan, so we've had to stop racing this year and wait to be demoted). With a combined 1,2,3 crews could race any of those, get points based on the host division of the event, crews can do the Div 1 races they are comfortable with, but can still race 2/3 (appreciate some of this can be achieved with PU, but difficult when most Div 1 races are over subscribed already. Perhaps promotion to Prem is then based on application to the slalom committee on the back of a solid set of results at Div 1 races, or we set the points so that a couple of decent Div 1 places would be required.

On the subject of selection, appreciate it's probably outside the control of the slalom committee, but I think there should be a request to relax the performance criteria for un-funded C2 crews at international races. Which then gives a target/motivation for progression into, and continued racing at Prem.

Steve, Windsor will be happy to second an AGM proposal if we can all agree on the details.

Paul

jke
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by jke » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:44 pm

WindsorCC wrote:I'd also propose that we merge 1,2 and 3...it's quite a jump from div 2 to div 1 water,
Paul
With respect Paul you're a special case. You're effectively paddling C2 as a C1. Easier on the flatter tighter (div 2) courses, harder on the heavier (div 1) courses, hence the jump from 2 to 1. I wouldn't want div 1s lumped in with 2 and 3.

And there's still a jump from 2 to 1 for C1. Or K1.
John Kent

Dee
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Dee » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:43 pm

Paul isn't really that special a case though. There have been a lot of father and son teams and large numbers of strong paddlers partnering young beginners. These pairings do not, for the most part, want to paddle div 1 water and when they get promoted just wait for demotion.

Perhaps C2 should be a bit more like Vets, but with div 4s, so:
- stay with 2/3 and P/1 divisions.
- scratch crews can enter div 4 (if at least one paddler is not ranked above div 4 in another class)
- scratch crews with at least one paddler ranked div 3 or above can enter a 2/3 but points not totted up as they are not ranked
- pairs requesting ranking are ranked in 2/3 and get points (based on K1M), but there is no automatic promotion
- only ranked 2/3 pairs can paddle-up to div 1.
- pairs must be ranked in P/1 to compete as host entrants at P/1 events
- to be ranked in P/1 pairs must either both be in div 1 or above in another class or must show that promotion points have been achieved, and must request P/1 ranking; if they don't want promotion they stay in 2/3

This would allow
- unranked pairs to compete fairly freely at lower events without needing to apply for bibs
- those who want to tot up season points and compare rankings to do so
- those who paddle for fun to stay in div 2/3 as long as they wish
- those who want to take it more seriously to progress and compete in P/1

At the same time, it controls who can enter P/1 races (which are already heavily subscribed) and avoids the danger of two non-paddlers just deciding it would be fun to take a boat down LV/Tryweryn or whatever.

In some ways this is less drastic as apart from changing points calcs the only real change is to remove automatic promotion, but this does allow pairings to stay in 2/3 when they want to and focus on paddling forfun!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

harratts
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by harratts » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:12 am

Hi everyone.

Good to read the comments expressed on this subject to date. Lots of good suggestions but some do conflict with other views expressed. Any formal ACM proposal needs to be submitted before the end of October so while the two discussion meetings would be a great way forward, nobody (as far as I know) is able to attend both and therefore take the lead to report back on any overriding views.

There are still a few notable C2 pairings (Ben & Fin, Team Agar, Team Roden, etc.) who have not posted any comments here as yet so I have sent private messages to each asking for their thoughts on my suggested changes for the division. Once I have everything back I can propose what I think would be the overall C2 class consensus.

In the meantime I will do a bit more analysis work on past results to confirm if my suggested Time Adjustment % values against the Men's K1 class are appropriate.

Steve

Nick Penfold
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Nick Penfold » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:39 pm

Good, Steve, but please keep it simple.

Nick Taylor
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Nick Taylor » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:26 am

I'd like to clarify what I was exploring with Nick Penfold

I was wondering if we could manage C2 in exactly the same way as we do now but remove the obligation for crews to physically receive their bib.
So, everything would work as it does now but a crew could paddle with the bib number allocated by the system but without the actual bib.

I've followed this thread on C2 as I'm a strong supporter but didn't contribute as I don't consider myself well enough versed in the ins & outs.

I would support whatever the majority deem suitable but wanted to explore how we could escape the constraints of the bib system because I think that would encourage new crews to paddle more times.

Nick Penfold
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Nick Penfold » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:55 am

Nick, I think you're asking to have your cake and eat it.
Part of the problem with C2 is having "the system" do anything at all. Pairs who have bib numbers in the Yearbook are OK - if they use their proper bib number, which a lot don't. New pairs have no bib number unless they apply, and we can't generate them automatically because we usually don't know who they are. For individuals in K1 and C1 we can match names, most of the time. C2 Pairs get listed in results in so many ways (A then B, B then A, with first names, with initials, just surnames, "the Bloggses", "Jack and Jill"...) that matching mostly doesn't work. Somebody (Stuart) has to pull everything together. It's a lot of work, and most of the one-off pairs (90% of the paddlers) probably don't care anyway.
What we need is a mechanism that gives those who want it a proper ranking competition but doesn't stop others doing it as-and-when for fun. But if you want a ranking, you should do the paperwork. If you don't want to fill in forms and pay postage, fine, but the quid pro quo is that you don't get the ranking service.

Dee
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Dee » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:32 pm

One of the advantages of the bib system is that it requires paddler to prove BC membership. Paddlers showing up without a physical bib should be expected to show membership cards.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Nick Penfold
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by Nick Penfold » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:01 pm

Yes, bib application is where we check BC membership. It's also how we provide judges with something (a bib) they can identify the crew with, and timing teams with a number ID to track them.

cmer
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Re: C2 Structure for 2018 Season

Post by cmer » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:46 pm

Steve, I like the idea that C2 could 'paddle down' and compete for equivalent points in a lower division. I don't think they should take prizes or effect points earned by host division paddlers. I think it should run along similar lines as we currently have with paddle up.
If we adopt the non quorate % for P/1 events then I think the demotion points required at the end of the season would need to be looked at and reduced. We don't want to demote active p/1 boats as there are now so few in the division.
I would definitely like to keep a ranking system and points.
It would be good if we can come up with an idea to support one off pairings without the need for a bib. It might just persuade a couple paddling K1 or C1 at a P/1 event to try C2 on harder water and actually find that they would like to take it further and apply for a bib. Currently this is not easily to do. I have been to div 1 events and tried to enter a scratch crew on the day and even though the event wasn't full we couldn't enter. There was only 1 other C2 on the start line and I expect they would have appreciated someone to paddle against!
I wonder if it is worth considering dropping the entry levy fees on C2 at P/1 events for 2018 season as an incentive to increase participation.
I'm fed up with hearing the Olympic argument that C2 has dwindled because of the class withdrawal. I think it is irrelevant, as lets face it, 99.9% of us won't be going to the Olympics whatever class we paddle. It's just a side show with the real competion being at the Worlds. The fact that we haven't had a GB boat at Euro/World/Junior events lately is in my opinion not acceptable, that is assuming we had boats that would have gone. I understand why it can't be funded due to conditions of the UK Sport money but regardless of the % criteria to make the GB team, BC should be activley encouraging the 'best' boat we have to go and gain experience and improve to become world class. I think this applied to Ben & Finn last year. How demotivating for them to just miss out and then for GB not to be represented.
I think all we all want is to be on the start line and compete against our mates and other like minded paddlers, whatever the division. It really is quite demoralising to be the only C2 at an event. It's really hard to justify the entry fee and I sometimes question whether it's worth bothering. We keep going though in the hope that we'll see a return in numbers and have a proper race!
See you at Grandtully for a chat
Clive

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