Simplifying Vets

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good

Simplifying Vets

Postby Nick Penfold » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:02 am

With reference to Dee's thread, but taking it seriously, how about simplifying Vets like this:
* All Vets are in one division (compare with Steve's proposal for C2)
* Registered Vets can enter a competition at any level (at their discretion!)
* Points are calculated by the inquorate comparison with K1M. At a Div 2/3, the comparison is with the Div 2 K1Ms.
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby 321go » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:34 pm

Gets my vote ---might even get back in my boat and train
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby Mike Mitchell » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:11 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:With reference to Dee's thread, but taking it seriously, how about simplifying Vets like this:
* All Vets are in one division (compare with Steve's proposal for C2)
* Registered Vets can enter a competition at any level (at their discretion!)
* Points are calculated by the inquorate comparison with K1M. At a Div 2/3, the comparison is with the Div 2 K1Ms.


Gets my Vote Nick.

I personally would like to continue entering Div1 as a Ranked Master, but also enter Prems as a Vet.
Also if this was approved I would consider registering as a Vet in C1.
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby Steve Agar » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:42 am

Sounds good to me too, would also allow those who maybe haven't reached as high a division as they want to paddle on bigger water that they are happy with (as getting out of div 2 these days can be hard).

Steve
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby JimW » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:33 pm

Steve Agar wrote:Sounds good to me too, would also allow those who maybe haven't reached as high a division as they want to paddle on bigger water that they are happy with (as getting out of div 2 these days can be hard).

Steve


Are you trying to entice me into a vets bib? :D
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby Nick Penfold » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:33 pm

Tweaking the suggestion above:
* Points are calculated by comparison with the equivalent divisional event (C1M with C1M, etc) if quorate. At a Div 2/3, the comparison is with Div 2.
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby John Sturgess » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:04 pm

Most of this looks fine; but I have a problem with Mike's post or rather, with an effect of it.

Last time I had to select a Pan-Celtic Team I needed to be able to get all Masters ranked together: how to compare 'ranked Masters' with Vets? I had to transpose the whole season's results!

John
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby JimW » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:20 pm

John Sturgess wrote:Most of this looks fine; but I have a problem with Mike's post or rather, with an effect of it.

Last time I had to select a Pan-Celtic Team I needed to be able to get all Masters ranked together: how to compare 'ranked Masters' with Vets? I had to transpose the whole season's results!

John


But John you enjoy that kind of analysis!
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby WindsorCC » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:09 pm

I guess that leads to the question - do we need Vets AND Masters?

I've been toying with paddling Div 1, as it's mostly just me and Dave racing each other (and generally both getting max points), and trying (and succeeding ;) ) to beat the P/1 Vet kayaks. It's fun having the back-and-forth with Dave, but I do still compare my times with the C1M to see how I'm getting on.

But, I'd like to retain the option to race Prem from time to time (doing the Open next weekend), same as some of the other P/1 vets who will mostly race Div 1's, but do the occasional Prem.

My only concern is, and I hope this doesn't come across as snobby/elitist etc, but to race at a P/1, you have to have been in that division at some point, which does make sense. Especially given the challenges with capacity in Div 1 particularly, I'm not sure it's right for paddlers to be able to short-cut the divisional system by nature of their age.

I think one of the issues at the moment in terms of complexity is the 2/3 Vets system, which appears to be different to the P/1 system. Is there an argument just for bringing them both into line and having one system, but split into P/1 and 2/3, rather than P/1, Div 2 Vets and Div 3 Vets (even though it seems to be shown as 2/3 vets in the rankings, despite being separate in the rules?)

I'd also question if there's any point in retaining the multiplier for P/1. Across all classes there are lots of situations where vets are getting maximum points (me and Dave being the extreme example...). I'm not sure why the multiple came about, as it's only really relevant if the vets are so slow that they would mostly be below the last place finisher in the comparable class, which doesn't seem to be the case.

That also solves John's issue, as Vets and Masters (if both are retained) points are directly comparable (I think...)

So I guess my proposal for simplification would be...

Retain P/1 and 2/3 vets, so that there is some control over who can enter which races.
Remove the multiplier in P/1 so it's the same as 2/3
For 2/3 vets, when entering a Div 2/3 race, they just enter whichever division they choose, then pay and get points comparable to that division. Not really an issue with P/1 as they are always single division races.

Thoughts? Happy to be shot down in flames.... :D

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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby harratts » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:20 pm

Personally (for the same reasons that a similar changes would work for the C2 class) I can see no reason why it would not work for all of the current Vet.'s classes and simplify everything associated with Vet. entries at the same time.

If the current 20% run time adjustment made to the Prem./1 Vet.'s entries is no longer applied then it would produce several benefits;-

No data analysis would be needed for future PCC Team selection as Vet. ranking points would be directly comparable to other none Vet. class ranking points as they are now for Div. 2/3 Vet.'s.

The Prem./1 Vet.'s class would operate the same as the Div. 2/3 Vet.'s class which is currently not the case as run times in Prem./1 get adjusted by a 20% allowance and those in Div. 2/3 do not.

Removal of this 20% run time adjustment in the C1 Men's Vet.'s class would mean that the top paddlers did not all earn the maximum ranking points available to them as they currently appear to be doing.

Picking up on Nick's amended proposal however I do have doubts that the C1 Men, C1 Women, C2 and sometimes K1 Women classes would always be quorate (especially at Div. 3 races) so how would Vet. ranking points be calculated in such circumstances?

Steve
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby Nick Penfold » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:12 pm

how would Vet. ranking points be calculated in such circumstances?

By factoring and comparing with K1M (as now), but I was trying to stick to the simple concept.
My only concern is... to race at a P/1, you have to have been in that division at some point, which does make sense. Especially given the challenges with capacity in Div 1 particularly, I'm not sure it's right for paddlers to be able to short-cut the divisional system by nature of their age.

I'll be surprised if a Vet who currently ranks as a 2/3 takes up the option to race at a Prem or Div 1 event more than once or twice in a year, so I just don't think this is an issue. If it is, the same would apply with a one-division C2.
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby chriswilde » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:39 pm

This is the best suggestion I have seen on here for ages, this
Would get me competing again! L
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby JimW » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:52 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:
how would Vet. ranking points be calculated in such circumstances?

By factoring and comparing with K1M (as now), but I was trying to stick to the simple concept.


I had assumed that was implied - no factors used if the corresponding event is quorate, but if it isn't, then that event will be factored anyway so the vets would follow suit making sure to only apply the factor once to the vets.

Nick Penfold wrote:
My only concern is... to race at a P/1, you have to have been in that division at some point, which does make sense. Especially given the challenges with capacity in Div 1 particularly, I'm not sure it's right for paddlers to be able to short-cut the divisional system by nature of their age.

I'll be surprised if a Vet who currently ranks as a 2/3 takes up the option to race at a Prem or Div 1 event more than once or twice in a year, so I just don't think this is an issue. If it is, the same would apply with a one-division C2.


This is probably the case, but it would also open the doors to any over 35 paddler from any division turning vet in order to be able to enter Prem & div 1 events. To be fair I have already been doing some div 1s PU and Official and have done Tully Prem as Official (& demo, which I suspect was less than ideal) and assume that anyone in a similar position (more than competent on the water but not fast or accurate enough to get promoted) is already doing the same, so I don't know how much it would affect overall numbers?
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby baronhetzvanrental » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:27 pm

I'll be surprised if a Vet who currently ranks as a 2/3 takes up the option to race at a Prem or Div 1 event more than once or twice in a year, so I just don't think this is an issue. If it is, the same would apply with a one-division C2.


I agree with Nick - I don't think this is an issue. P/1 events are unlikely to have many entries by 2/3 paddlers. I'm in Div 3 and if I went vet I wouldn't consider entering a Prem event (mainly for fear of damaging my boat!) and there's only one Div 1 that I'd enter, which is on water I paddle all the time.
If I could, I would. But I'll capsize instead.
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Postby Nigel » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:31 pm

For me, having paddled and competed for 4 decades, I've had my time, but it's not yet over; The reason I moved to Vets was to concentrate on giving my two Boys the opportunity in slalom to achieve things as a child/youth I only dreamt of, without having to think of myself. I'm loving the comradery and banter that you really only get with paddlers of a certain vintage, and to be able to follow my lads journey through the ranks gets my full vote, full stop. As for calculating points etc, sorry but thats just noise on the system, do whatever you wish, being there with my boys is far more valuable to me than points, its what I chose.

Nigel,
Telford Canoe Club.
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