Coping with Numbers in Div 1

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
lesf
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 5:15 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by lesf » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:44 pm

West Tanfield - hire cost - last one this year


The loss of West Tanfield is the campsite withdrawing their support (without giving much reason) rather than cost issues - although the costs have been hiked in recent years

Dee
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Dee » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:52 pm

Just following up on the Llandysul numbers.

I can see that waiting list numbers are dropping and a few of those on the waiting list have been offered places.

Also worth pointing out that Llandysul has recorded 44 cancelations for Saturday alone. Now some of these will be promotees that have then been reentered in the new division, but equally we generally don't record cancellations from the waiting list. Whichever way you look at it, it remains an administrative headache and is a good argument for not allowing entries until 3months before hand.

Llandysul is perhaps slightly exceptional because of the nature of the race and the fact that they are late in the season, but cancellations are increasing every year creating a vicious circle of panic booking and withdrawing.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Amassey1
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Amassey1 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:19 am

While additional races would help, wasting places on current Div 1 races to cater for Pan Celtic paddlers is hurting the division paddlers now. Maybe it's time for the Pan celtic to stand on its own or accept it may have run its course. Giving a race day spot to bottom of Div 2 paddlers is not helping address Div1 paddlers trying to get to races.

CeeBee
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Location: Falkirk

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by CeeBee » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:48 pm

Pan Celtic can run with a Division race but could be restricted to paddlers in that Division only and any that get Paddle Up places.

djberriman
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by djberriman » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:46 am

Problem with that is PU aren't know until a month before so you may or may not have a team.

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Dee » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:29 am

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the purpose of pan Celtic. I think it should either be made much more of or abolished. Separating the races out and making more of team announcement and prizes could achieve the former or might make the latter inevitable. It currently seems to be in no-man's land and has been for many years.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by JimW » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:37 pm

As an observation, it would probably be possible to make a PCC J12 and J14 team up just using div 1 paddlers, but the team managers are only allowed to use paddlers who registered an interest in taking part, and not enough div 1s have bothered to rgister.

I understand the idea of separating Vets J12 and J14 out from a prem race to a div 1 race was based on the idea that most of the eligible paddlers would be div 1 so why not simply make it that and only make the teams for those age groups up from div 1, and likewise the other ages up from prem?

Since taking part in PCC actually requires no more than turning up and racing as normal (unless you are racing as an Official when you may have other duties and your NA will pay your fees) why not just do away with the registration process and allow team managers to pick the PCC team from the paddlers already entered for the race at some specified date in advance of the race?

I also note that people have been quick to jump on the div 2 PUs in this discussion, the only reason I even registered was because the English leg (for V/J14/J12) was at a Washburn div 2 - one of the few fully subscribed div2's on the calendar, yet I don't recall any of us complaining that places were being taken by prems and div 1's. Also what about the Prems that are paddling down (open or officials) at Llandysul to enter PCC?
I am more and more starting to think it is fairest to all divisions (assuming we are going to retain divisions) if PCC rules change to only use paddlers in the division of the race, which means England would need to pick a div 1 next year instead of a div 2 to ensure equality. It also means I wouldn't be on the PCC team again, perhaps ever, but I would still send PU entries in to div 1 races in the hope of sometimes getting unused places.

Dee
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Dee » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:40 pm

JimW wrote:...at Llandysul to enter PCC?
For Llandysul, I think the main impact is from those entering Junior/Vet champs.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

CeeBee
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Location: Falkirk

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by CeeBee » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:05 pm

The PanCeltic gives young paddlers the opportunity to race for their country and for Scotland, to wear a Scottish helmet and a Scottish cag. It allows paddlers to be compared against their age group. This can be quite valuable in Div 1 and Prem as some of these youngsters will take a while to get prizes when they are promoted to Div 1 and Prem and doing well at the PAnCeltic is rewarding and you get a prize. Youngsters generally like prizes. I think that like many of the events which run alongside ranking events, that 2 separate sets of results should be produced. 1 for the ranking event and 1 for the other event e.g. Pan Celtic, Junior Champs, Scottish Schools etc. This also increases the value of the bolt on event.

My kids have always liked competing at the PanCeltic and it used to foster a good team spirit. It is just like being selected for the British Team but at a lower level.

Dee
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Dee » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:59 pm

Interesting about the prizes as I've been at panceltics and never been aware of prizes being given! Does that always happen?
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by JimW » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:51 pm

I got an easter egg at Tully - I was the first of the vets registered for PCC, which confused me at first because there were 2 other vets ahead of me who weren't registered....

I remember seeing Elaine and Angela in the marquee sorting out 2 big tables of prizes and trophies ahead of prizegiving, it was impressive!

Mike Mitchell
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Mike Mitchell » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:55 pm

Dee wrote:Interesting about the prizes as I've been at panceltics and never been aware of prizes being given! Does that always happen?
I got 3 easter Eggs at Grandtully, K1, C1 plus teams. Saved going Easter Egg Shopping for the Kids.
At Washburn there were nice Shields.
Is it just up to the organisers or the Home nation.

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Dee » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:59 am

Following up on waiting list numbers

By the time Llandysul took place there were only 5 host paddlers remaining on the waiting list.

All host division paddlers for HPP div 1 have been offered places.

The perception of over-ful races is far worse than the reality
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

lesf
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Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 5:15 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by lesf » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:53 am

To back up Dee's point, with data from Tees Barrage (as it wasn't online)

Prem race - all the Prems that wanted to paddle got a space, plus the 5 Pan Celtics that were outside of the host division that applied. Ok, we had no room for PU's but that's always the risk for PU.

Div 1 - I was able to take the few paddle ups on my list 4 weeks before the event, and the event of reach full around 2 weeks before the event with a small waiting list (max 4 or 5 paddlers). Then with withdrawls (most were because of promotion to Prem) I was able to accept those on the waiting list and others that entered in the week before the race. In fact I actually took a couple of entries on the Sunday morning of the race! and had space for others.

Les

Seedy Paddler
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Seedy Paddler » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:28 pm

However in both cases the event was full or nearly full well in advance. The events clashed with the October school holidays and many people on seeing an event pushing a waiting list will look at an alternative for the weekend or week. Would you give up a potential family holiday in the hope that numbers could reduce to allow an entry (particularly a single race weekend) or enjoy the holiday. Not everyone uses on-line entries and once full many will not bother to add. Yes there is release and many then make races but it is fundamentally wrong to state that events are not being oversubscribed when the waiting lists are fully active 4 weeks before an event.

However we also need to recognise that we are still progressing the 2012 bubble, sparked by the promotion of 2012 Olympics and funding to develop sports. Look at our entry levels lower down and actually far from creation of a new division in a few years time we will be looking for competitors. Those 2012 aspirants are now entering University and moving away from home, a notorious time when they will find it harder to travel, train, compete and easier to follow peers and similar activities. A period of high drop out that has existed for decades.

CD

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