Veteran working party - Suggestions ?

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:16 pm

Just thought it might help to have some ideas thrown around regarding any possible improvements to the current Veteran /DV system.

As far as I can see the Veteran system's advantages which would need to be maintained include:
-able to compete against other veterans in multiple divisions
-no threat of demotion no matter how infrequently one races

The only improvements I could suggest would be:
- to make DV and Veteran results comparable, so competition, and end of year prizes could be awarded to the best DV or Veteran paddlers, but not both. Many organisers did this last yr anyway for div2 races I attended.
-to look at endof year results in different age categories (10years apart)

unofficial amalgamated DV and Vet results 2007

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:31 pm

I think one issue that needs looking at is why so few paddlers choose to go veteran. I'm 41 and paddle as a DV. Personally, I don't want protecting from demotion because if I'm not good enough for a division then I don't want to be there, that's why I'm not interested in Vet. Results wise, I always look to see where I've come against other DVs not the young racing snakes as this would only dishearten me and isn't that representative. I'd welcome formal acknowledgement of "success" if prizes were awarded by age category (40-49) (50-60) (60-120!!). Finally, I think 35 is too young to go vet/DV, it should start at 40 minimum.

Cheers

PB

Carlr · Post by **Carlr** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:59 pm

[quote] I always look to see where I've come against other DVs not the young racing snakes as this would only dishearten me and isn't that representative.

Maybe you should be comparing yourself to the youngsters, i never look to see where i have come against other DV paddlers as i set my sights on being at the sharp end. I would rather not be down as DV as i enter as Senior even though i am older than Paul. Maybe its that competitive streak in me. I dont race to come last, I want to beat the youngsters and also enjoy the racing. You only have to look at David Ford of Canada 41 and still paddling with the worlds best. Getting older isnt the end of the world!! or time make excuses.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:17 am

Carl, why not fly the flag for DV paddlers by racing as DV, and being one of the first to be promoted to Prem this yr, as you are quite capable of doing. We need DV paddlers like yourself to prove to the youngsters and other DV paddlers just what you've said is possible.

I agree 35 is young to be called a vet, but it is in line with canoe racing on flatwater (I think). Perhaps initially we could have prizes for two groups, 35-49 and 50+ at events instead of separate DV and Veteran prizes. Organizers would not have to pay for more prizes, and if popular could be extended to more age groups.

No matter who you compare your results with, be it DV, Vet , snakes, or eels, it helps if the results are comparable. I think Vet points should be what they would have achieved in the race rather than one place ahead.

Dave Royle · Post by **Dave Royle** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:04 pm

First of all the age issue :

Age in itself is not the only constraint. Often by the time we are 30 or 35 there are other limitations on our fitness and freedom to train. Because of this I am quite happy that the age for veteran should remain the same. Thankfully, some of these constraints eventually leave home allowing us to re-enter the senior brigade.

Secondly the DV/Vet issue:

Most of the people I know who have turned Veteran (V) have generally lasted a season and then packed in. It is like a last attempt before giving up altogether. Certainly the people I know in this category are competitive and on realising they are no longer competitive in the division for fitness or time constraint reasons they opt to turn veteran. Sadly, the Veteran's divisions are much less competitive and the races don't satisfy the requirement of the competitor.

The advantage of the Veteran system is that when a parent paddles with their child, they can race too and enjoy the events and all they entail.

My suggestion:

We retain the difference between DV and V

DV's are just an age category in the main division.

Veterans declare a division at the beginning of the season and get awarded the same points that they would of got in the ranking division.

A Veteran may change their declared division part way through the year but lose the points they have already gained that season. (child gets promoted). This provides interesting rivalry round the Sunday evening dinner table.

An interesting alternative is to abandon the age criteria altogether and have a Dad's (or Mum's) Race and stretching it one stage further a Grandad (or Grandma) race. We could do sack race, egg and spoon. All manner of things.

Bus Driver · Post by **Bus Driver** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:05 pm

Just a thought......... how about changing the "tag" to "Masters"? possibly a better name?

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:05 pm

But what do we call any female still paddling after 35. . . .

Exercise for the reader, female equivalent of Master is. . .

Dutch Geezer · Post by **Dutch Geezer** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:11 pm

Ooh! Getting beaten by a mistress takes on a whole new meaning.

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:17 am

Hi. Hopefully my nickname here is a clear enough indication of who I really am

My first comp was 1971 at the age of 14. I continued to compete until 1980 when my whole life was almost cancelled after breaking my neck and back in a car accident. I returned to the sport in 2002 for a couple of years then life commitments took me away from the sport again. I am back again this season

I have seen a lot of changes in slalom - and a +17kg change in myself! At 51 years old I have been classed as a Div 1/Prem Vet (V). I can hold my own in Div 1 but Prem is stretching it a bit. But on a Prem/Div 1 weekend I get to paddle both races and that is great for me. Also, in 2003 and 2004 I competed in the British Open and Class C International. If I was a (DV) I would not be allowed to compete in Prem events or the British Open. It is primarily for this reason that I paddle (V) and not (DV). I am in a boat only once a week so I really cannot expect too high a placing but as I sometimes have a reasonable run and some Premsters have a bad run, I still get to beat a few

I understand that on the Continent the age brackets are 5 year intervals. I doubt there are enough paddlers here to warrant that. But me pitching myself against a paddler 16 or 17 years my junior is hardly reasonable when there are J14, J16, J18 etc categories in two year intervals. I do not know how old other Prem V's and DV's are but maybe I am the oldest? I think 10 year bands, 40-50, 50-60 etc or 35-45, 45-55 etc would be more reasonable. My poor old tank was definately running on empty after slogging round Shepperton last weekend on a course that took the fastest Premster all of 125 seconds to complete! Gimme a break! Took me back to the days of 20 second "outside" touches and 240 second courses!

Whatever the changes, if any, I will continue to pitch myself against one and all. But recognition at events for the performance of us older not-quite-past-it-yet athletes would be nice. Thanks for reading my views

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:28 am

Spiderman, I do not think you are the oldest, I am aware of other 50+ paddlers competing in DV in Div 1.

A few years ago some nasty ranking compiler published a div 1 ranking list with all the dates of birth. Luckily for me it was only up at Llangollen for a day. It's depressing how recently some of the paddlers were born! :p

jim croft · Post by **jim croft** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:18 am

:;): You are correct Pete P is only a youngster there is a lady from Bristol I won't name her she is in her mid sixteys.

If there was an over 70's I might make a comeback (joke)
:p
Jim

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:10 pm

But the lovely lady in question does not paddle in Div1/Prem, so she is outside PP's question, so am I this year having not paddled much for most of two seasons!

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:46 am

Hi Colin. Yes, there maybe some in Div 1 but I was referring to Prem Vets and Prem Div Vets. So my query remains unanswered

I cannot be certain I am the oldest but I will claim I am until someone proves to me I am not! In Prem events I tend to operate on the same theory as the underdog teams in F1 - If they have a good race and top teams mess up, they will get a good result

Its worked out pretty well for me in recent years and meant I beat top 20 Premsters in the 2002 and 2003 Llangollen Internationals

I last competed in the 2004 British Open at HPP and again beat of few whippersnappers

Jim, yes, I am a youngster. But then that is compared to you of course :laugh: I am glad to see the subject of Vets up for debate again. Especially as I emailed you in this regard last year to express much the same as I have here. It is no mean feat trying to show some of these REAL youngsters how it should be done when your mind refuses to agree with your body about its joint age!!

I am wondering who will be the decision maker on this. I think the decision may be affected by the age of the decision maker! But the present open ended class of "36 to infinity (and beyond!)" is, in the spirit of fair and reasonable competition ...erm.....really ridiculous IMHO.

Here's hoping something changes so that (i) an older Vet can get some satisfaction from winning his class and (ii) a younger Vet can get some satisfaction from winning against serious competion that does not include paddlers as old as his Dad!!!

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:28 pm

I paddled DV for many years and was very happy seeing how I did against both the other DVs and youngsters. I turned Vet for two reasons, when Colin got promoted to Prem I was concerned that I might get to too few Div 2 events and could get demoted on to comps that I would not find challenging. The second, and this one is important, is that I have no desire to get in to Div 1. I could not commit the time to train sufficiently to stay in the div so would immediately get demoted again and I do not, and have no wish to, paddle some of the Div 1 courses.

In short whilst Dave Royle is right that some Vets turn Vet as a last fling in the sport, a number of others have paddled in Vets for some years and we have personal reasons for being there. Why fix something that ain't broke.

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:30 pm

I've now actually seen a couple of good clear arguments for having the separate Vets league, which I didn't understand when we had the last bulletin board discussion on this matter at the end of last season.

But if we did have some DV only system, with age ranges or however it was done, we could have it set up in such a way that all real Vets [i.e. 40+ or 45+] had some sort of protection from demotion [not without some proviso, of course].

Good luck to any Vets or DVs on the Ski Slope this weekend. This particular DV will be freezing his ***** on start.