I am a Product Design student at Nottingham Trent University, I'm currently looking into designing a boat which will serve as the ideal boat to introduce very young children nto canoesport. Currently I am unaware of any equipment sutable for the age group I am proposing (3 years plus) and I also think there is scope for child friendly design as opposed to miniaturisation of adult boats.
I am putting the idea onto this forum to try to get a view from within the canoeing world, particularly from parents, but also from coaches and paddlers aswell.
The main points I'm keen to find out about are:
What age do people currently start paddling? and what are club rules on this? Is the ability to swim neccesary?
What age would parents be happy to allow heir children to go paddling? And what would make them feel hapier in letting them go? (Some suggestions: Self righting boats, outriggers, swimming pools, any other suggestions?)
Has anyone found any equipment suitable for young children out there already? Could it be better?
What would be te develpmental pros and cons for very young children going paddling?
Any feedback is gratefully received and please feel free to open the topic up to as many avenues of children paddling as you like, the list is by no means ALL I want to know, just what I think I want to know at the moment!
Thanks
James
Paddling for three year olds! - Canoesports for a younger age group.
Hi James
OK I'll kick off if you like
I'm assuming you're not looking to design canoe slalom boats for 3 year olds
This is a personal point of view but I would have said that 3 for actually paddling solo is far too young - remember they have no muscle strength to speak of at that age. Also I am not at all sanguine that they would have the necessary co-ordination abilities to paddle - look where they are going lean etc at appropriate times. I for one would not put them in a boat solo at such a young age.
I used to take my own kids out in an open canadian from very young but finding the right size bouyancy aids was a nightmare - although I understand that you can now find BAs from size birth upwards!
While we have always taken a fairly robust approach to what our kids do physically I think we are probably in the minority nowadays.
Swimming - absolutely! I actually feel it is tantamount to child abuse if parents allow their children to paddle without them being able to swim Swimming IS a life skill and I personally feel that anyone messing around in boats or by rivers should have at least basic swimming skills. Its worth considering that a three year old can potentially drown in 2 inches of water!
My advise would be to speak with paediatricians who also have an interest in the very young and sport. I'm sure the Institute of Sport could point you in the right direction. There are so many issues with very young people
Strength
co-ordination
cognitive ability
attention focus
the list is endless
Sorry its not more positive
Cheers
OK I'll kick off if you like
I'm assuming you're not looking to design canoe slalom boats for 3 year olds
This is a personal point of view but I would have said that 3 for actually paddling solo is far too young - remember they have no muscle strength to speak of at that age. Also I am not at all sanguine that they would have the necessary co-ordination abilities to paddle - look where they are going lean etc at appropriate times. I for one would not put them in a boat solo at such a young age.
I used to take my own kids out in an open canadian from very young but finding the right size bouyancy aids was a nightmare - although I understand that you can now find BAs from size birth upwards!
While we have always taken a fairly robust approach to what our kids do physically I think we are probably in the minority nowadays.
Swimming - absolutely! I actually feel it is tantamount to child abuse if parents allow their children to paddle without them being able to swim Swimming IS a life skill and I personally feel that anyone messing around in boats or by rivers should have at least basic swimming skills. Its worth considering that a three year old can potentially drown in 2 inches of water!
My advise would be to speak with paediatricians who also have an interest in the very young and sport. I'm sure the Institute of Sport could point you in the right direction. There are so many issues with very young people
Strength
co-ordination
cognitive ability
attention focus
the list is endless
Sorry its not more positive
Cheers
My son first sat in a boat aged 2 years 6 months old. Took my paddle and pondered about for nearly an hour.
I got Nomad to make him a Nomad Energizer and paddle for his 5th Birthday back in August.
He did his 1st capsize in the pool on Friday & we go for a paddle every Sunday.
Finding Kit for kids is really hard. Thanks to Jim @ Nomad, he has a boat & paddle he can use correctly.
My son has been swimimg since he was three, goes to Karate on Thursday & Football on Wednesday & Saturday.
His only problem now, is that primary school gets in the way.
I'm all for giving kids a chance to try everything, to keep fit and active and to spend as little time as possible in front of the TV & Computer Games.
The issues raised like, Strength, co-ordination, cognitive ability & attention focus will be gained by trying different sports & not putting them off before they start.
Nick
I got Nomad to make him a Nomad Energizer and paddle for his 5th Birthday back in August.
He did his 1st capsize in the pool on Friday & we go for a paddle every Sunday.
Finding Kit for kids is really hard. Thanks to Jim @ Nomad, he has a boat & paddle he can use correctly.
My son has been swimimg since he was three, goes to Karate on Thursday & Football on Wednesday & Saturday.
His only problem now, is that primary school gets in the way.
I'm all for giving kids a chance to try everything, to keep fit and active and to spend as little time as possible in front of the TV & Computer Games.
The issues raised like, Strength, co-ordination, cognitive ability & attention focus will be gained by trying different sports & not putting them off before they start.
Nick
personally agree with everything NKCanoe has said - however - this is not the norm unfortunately.
I am constantly shocked by how many kids cant swim by the time they are 3 - too many by the time they are 10 for goodness sake!
Age 5 solo in a boat sounds good to me - I just think for the average 3 year old it is too early.
But again totally agree about exposing them as young as possible to all sorts of sports
For me it is the swimming aspect that bothers me most Get it wrong in a boat and the consequences can be dire - my concern is as follows:
If the responsible adult doesn't mind putting a child who cant swim in a boat solo on a river/lake etc then how closely are they going to be monitoring them and ensuring safety?
Apart from open canoes we took our kids out from the age of 1 1/2 - 2 on sit on top canoes so that we could sit behind them and maintain control (my kids could swim unaided from 12 months) that worked really well.
I am constantly shocked by how many kids cant swim by the time they are 3 - too many by the time they are 10 for goodness sake!
Age 5 solo in a boat sounds good to me - I just think for the average 3 year old it is too early.
But again totally agree about exposing them as young as possible to all sorts of sports
For me it is the swimming aspect that bothers me most Get it wrong in a boat and the consequences can be dire - my concern is as follows:
If the responsible adult doesn't mind putting a child who cant swim in a boat solo on a river/lake etc then how closely are they going to be monitoring them and ensuring safety?
Apart from open canoes we took our kids out from the age of 1 1/2 - 2 on sit on top canoes so that we could sit behind them and maintain control (my kids could swim unaided from 12 months) that worked really well.
Hi
Our youngest was paddling on his own down the river Tarn in France in a pyrana masterlite when he was 4 years old. (note warm water!)
As for swimming. We had them learning to swim in the pool from 6 months and 'swimming' down rapids on our local river at 3-4, but it's more about water confidence - and having buoyancy aids, wetsuits and helmets on - and monitoring them very closely (whilst not intervening always too quickly! )... But then we are both parent paddlers...
It is more about water confidence and the important part being keeping them warm and comfortable - so that's the most important part of the equipment at that stage!
We bought him a drysuit when he was 9, for winter paddling in the UK - people thought we were 'over the top', but listening to crying with cold hands and feet is no fun and a drysuit made all the difference! One that grew with him would be worth researching, as a boat can last many years, but he keeps outgrowing drysuits and that's expensive!
we also had them 'boogie boarding' in surf waves - which did a lot for water confidence
Our youngest was paddling on his own down the river Tarn in France in a pyrana masterlite when he was 4 years old. (note warm water!)
As for swimming. We had them learning to swim in the pool from 6 months and 'swimming' down rapids on our local river at 3-4, but it's more about water confidence - and having buoyancy aids, wetsuits and helmets on - and monitoring them very closely (whilst not intervening always too quickly! )... But then we are both parent paddlers...
It is more about water confidence and the important part being keeping them warm and comfortable - so that's the most important part of the equipment at that stage!
We bought him a drysuit when he was 9, for winter paddling in the UK - people thought we were 'over the top', but listening to crying with cold hands and feet is no fun and a drysuit made all the difference! One that grew with him would be worth researching, as a boat can last many years, but he keeps outgrowing drysuits and that's expensive!
we also had them 'boogie boarding' in surf waves - which did a lot for water confidence
At our club we have:
Dagger dynamos, which are really stable and easy to turn so great for beginners
Galasport Dinos, which are nice and narrow which is good to allow smaller children to achieve a good high angle on the paddle shaft for forward paddling. Being narrow they are quite tippy so the child has to be fairly confident. The stern is a little bouyant so only the stronger children can slice it under the water.
Nomad Energisers, which are a little wider and longer than the Dinos, but have a nice slicy stern so they are good for introducing more advanced slalom techniques.
We have some Galasport junior paddles, which are excellent being fairly light and having a small diameter shaft, and some Ainsworth junior paddles which are a bit heavy, though the shaft is OK.
For spraydecks we have been using Reed decks as they are better at keeping out water than nylon and go on and come off fairly easily They also come with adjustable waists. Ours haven't lasted too well and leak quite badly now, but that might be down to a poor batch of material at Reed.
The youngest children we take are about 8, though it is more to do with size than anything else.
Small helmets are a problem too.
The difficulty as I see it with getting very young children into the sport beyond just a bit of pottering about is that it is very important that they have equipment that they can handle. This means very small boats and very small paddles. The boats are probably best if they are flat bottomed for stability, though they can't be too wide or else the children won't be able to get the paddle in the water effectively.
Dagger dynamos, which are really stable and easy to turn so great for beginners
Galasport Dinos, which are nice and narrow which is good to allow smaller children to achieve a good high angle on the paddle shaft for forward paddling. Being narrow they are quite tippy so the child has to be fairly confident. The stern is a little bouyant so only the stronger children can slice it under the water.
Nomad Energisers, which are a little wider and longer than the Dinos, but have a nice slicy stern so they are good for introducing more advanced slalom techniques.
We have some Galasport junior paddles, which are excellent being fairly light and having a small diameter shaft, and some Ainsworth junior paddles which are a bit heavy, though the shaft is OK.
For spraydecks we have been using Reed decks as they are better at keeping out water than nylon and go on and come off fairly easily They also come with adjustable waists. Ours haven't lasted too well and leak quite badly now, but that might be down to a poor batch of material at Reed.
The youngest children we take are about 8, though it is more to do with size than anything else.
Small helmets are a problem too.
The difficulty as I see it with getting very young children into the sport beyond just a bit of pottering about is that it is very important that they have equipment that they can handle. This means very small boats and very small paddles. The boats are probably best if they are flat bottomed for stability, though they can't be too wide or else the children won't be able to get the paddle in the water effectively.
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Dave Royle
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:02 pm
When kids capsize for the first few times, whatever age, they need someone near them in a boat to fish them out etc. They don't have to be strong swimmers and they have a bouyancy aid and a boat to hold on to. They often struggle to get out of the boat but, that has nothing to do with swimming. Having said that, my two boys were told they couldn't go canoeing until they could swim which for them was an incentive.
Luc (7 years) started paddling once a week this year. He's done a few races and loves it. He also understands what he's trying to do. He also has the benefit of a friend of the same age learning to paddle too which makes it more fun for them. He uses an energizer and a pair of very short Raab juniors. From a boat design point of view there is very little boat actually in the water. The energizers seem to work pretty well.
Christopher (5 1/2 years) has tried a couple of times but doesn't really understand the mechanics so, he has to be told what to do stroke by stroke. We have decided that we will try again next year. He likes paddling C2 with his old dad, though.
Clothing bouyancy aids and hats could do with looking at probably. They are expensive and perhaps don't give enough adjustment so that they can last a few years.
Luc (7 years) started paddling once a week this year. He's done a few races and loves it. He also understands what he's trying to do. He also has the benefit of a friend of the same age learning to paddle too which makes it more fun for them. He uses an energizer and a pair of very short Raab juniors. From a boat design point of view there is very little boat actually in the water. The energizers seem to work pretty well.
Christopher (5 1/2 years) has tried a couple of times but doesn't really understand the mechanics so, he has to be told what to do stroke by stroke. We have decided that we will try again next year. He likes paddling C2 with his old dad, though.
Clothing bouyancy aids and hats could do with looking at probably. They are expensive and perhaps don't give enough adjustment so that they can last a few years.
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alexthefish
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:14 pm
- Location: South
As a brother of two 5 and 7 boys, both of which are getting into their paddling, I would personally say that getting a child confident with their kit is paramount. This includes not feeling wobbly, comfprt issues, and being able to control their boats fairly easily.
I regularly coach the younger paddlers in my club, and almost all of them could do with better kit.
I also find that kids are unable to put in effective forward strokes, due to the width of their boats - all they can ever do is sweep strokes, as they cannot achieve any angle with the paddle in the water.
I sing the praises of the Dagger Dynamo, because of its lower walls and great responsiveness, but it is still too wide.
Often, children are disheartened by slow progress, often coming from their zig-zag routes down the river! Again, a better angle with the blades could reduce this, and that comes with reduced width. This in turn, however, reduces primary stability (kids aren't interested in secondary).
So, my perfect child's boat would be:
- Thin enough for an effective paddle stroke, yet...
- Wide enough to give comforting stability
- Easily maneouvrable
- Comfortable (Child - width hips, otherwise they slide around sideways and get lopsided)
- In proportion - for instance, the cockpit size would bee slightly reduced, to aid putting on a spraydeck. (too small, though, and the child can't get in or out easily)
- Modern-looking - Kids want to paddle the same stuff as the grown ups!
Just to add, all of this was found through my own experience, and others may wish to add/amend detials. I would say it is generally true. Also, I've had to compare with adult beginners, because they can get better strokes in. However, some of the drawbacks don't apply, such as the aesthetics. In addition, the cockpit size matters less to adults, as they are less worried (generally) about how to get out in a capsize, and they are less likely to panic than children.
Hpoefully that's clear enough
It's great to see someone taking the initiative to supply for children. Perhaps somebody would also like to start designing a boat for tall, large, or unflexible people
I regularly coach the younger paddlers in my club, and almost all of them could do with better kit.
I also find that kids are unable to put in effective forward strokes, due to the width of their boats - all they can ever do is sweep strokes, as they cannot achieve any angle with the paddle in the water.
I sing the praises of the Dagger Dynamo, because of its lower walls and great responsiveness, but it is still too wide.
Often, children are disheartened by slow progress, often coming from their zig-zag routes down the river! Again, a better angle with the blades could reduce this, and that comes with reduced width. This in turn, however, reduces primary stability (kids aren't interested in secondary).
So, my perfect child's boat would be:
- Thin enough for an effective paddle stroke, yet...
- Wide enough to give comforting stability
- Easily maneouvrable
- Comfortable (Child - width hips, otherwise they slide around sideways and get lopsided)
- In proportion - for instance, the cockpit size would bee slightly reduced, to aid putting on a spraydeck. (too small, though, and the child can't get in or out easily)
- Modern-looking - Kids want to paddle the same stuff as the grown ups!
Just to add, all of this was found through my own experience, and others may wish to add/amend detials. I would say it is generally true. Also, I've had to compare with adult beginners, because they can get better strokes in. However, some of the drawbacks don't apply, such as the aesthetics. In addition, the cockpit size matters less to adults, as they are less worried (generally) about how to get out in a capsize, and they are less likely to panic than children.
Hpoefully that's clear enough
It's great to see someone taking the initiative to supply for children. Perhaps somebody would also like to start designing a boat for tall, large, or unflexible people
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carboncraft
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:26 pm
- Location: Thrapston Northamptonshire
I’ve been reading these threads with some interest as for the last 6 or 7 months in my spare time working on a junior boat. This is based on one of our small Scorpio's and earlier in the year we took a couple or these to Cardington, they were used by quite a few youngsters, most liked them as they found them fairly directional and low around the cockpit however we noticed that they were still clipping their hands and could not get there paddle stroke high due to the width, we cut 50mm of the width which has helped a lot.
The area we could not decide on was the length should we stick with 3.5m so they can get used to the length or reduce the length? In the end we spoke to several coaches who all believed that getting used to the length was important so we decided to stick with 3.5m we also kept more volume in the bow so it pops up quickly giving the added feel of security over drops. the first boat has had a good response from the youngsters who have paddled it.
We did look at a scaled down boat but (shorter, narrower etc) but did not go down that route "this time"
It is interesting the different views about size etc. personally I believe the more kids we can get into boats the better it is for our sport.
The area we could not decide on was the length should we stick with 3.5m so they can get used to the length or reduce the length? In the end we spoke to several coaches who all believed that getting used to the length was important so we decided to stick with 3.5m we also kept more volume in the bow so it pops up quickly giving the added feel of security over drops. the first boat has had a good response from the youngsters who have paddled it.
We did look at a scaled down boat but (shorter, narrower etc) but did not go down that route "this time"
It is interesting the different views about size etc. personally I believe the more kids we can get into boats the better it is for our sport.
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alexthefish
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:14 pm
- Location: South
I totally agree with you, carboncraft, about the added volume in the nose, a major oversight on my part When were you at cardington? I'm trying to remember if I saw your boats.
However, I am wondering, are we talking slalom boats here or General Purpose plastic?
I'm not sure if a six year old, let alone a three year old child would require a specific slalom boat, if they even paddle slalom at all.
I've also had another idea - a large rocker could sort out the height issues, with a low middle and high ends. This would also help if said child ran a drop or two.
When were you at cardington? I'm trying to remember if I saw your boats.However, I am wondering, are we talking slalom boats here or General Purpose plastic?
I'm not sure if a six year old, let alone a three year old child would require a specific slalom boat, if they even paddle slalom at all.
I've also had another idea - a large rocker could sort out the height issues, with a low middle and high ends. This would also help if said child ran a drop or two.
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carboncraft
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:26 pm
- Location: Thrapston Northamptonshire
The boats were at Cardingdon over the weekend of 3-4 July both were black and white one had a V shape design on the deck, the other (slightly bigger) had a design that went over the deck and under the hull.
And yes they are slalom boat, made from the good old sticky stuff.
The first boat out the mould was finished today, bright lime green, looks nice honest!
And yes they are slalom boat, made from the good old sticky stuff.
The first boat out the mould was finished today, bright lime green, looks nice honest!
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Dave Royle
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:02 pm
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alexthefish
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:14 pm
- Location: South
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carboncraft
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:26 pm
- Location: Thrapston Northamptonshire