Div 4 eligibility and harmonisation of rules

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:07 pm

The English language takes precedence and is the designated language for international competitions.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:12 pm

LANGUAGE
The English written language is the only acceptable language for all official communications relating to these Statutes and the conduct of ICF competitions.
For the sake of consistency, British spelling, punctuation and grammatical conventions have been used throughout.
Any word which may imply the masculine gender, also includes the feminine

and

ARTICLE 7 - LANGUAGES
1.The official languages of the ICF are English, French, German, Spanish and Russian. In case of discrepancy, the English text shall prevail

How quickly you forget Munchkin, I suppose [don flak jacket] I should be grateful that we do not have our rules saying:
"The official languages of the BCU are English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Cornish. In case of discrepancy, the English text shall prevail."

Mind you with some of the postings on here, perhasp I should have put Bizarre rather than Cornish.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:50 pm

Canadian PAddler wrote:
LANGUAGE
The English written language is the only acceptable language for all official communications relating to these Statutes and the conduct of ICF competitions.
For the sake of consistency, British spelling, punctuation and grammatical conventions have been used throughout.
Any word which may imply the masculine gender, also includes the feminine

and
ARTICLE 7 - LANGUAGES
1.The official languages of the ICF are English, French, German, Spanish and Russian. In case of discrepancy, the English text shall prevail

How quickly you forget Munchkin, I suppose [don flak jacket] I should be grateful that we do not have our rules saying:
"The official languages of the BCU are English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Cornish. In case of discrepancy, the English text shall prevail."

Mind you with some of the postings on here, perhasp I should have put Bizarre rather than Cornish.

Hey, I only forgot one of them and thats the one that I can't say a single word in (German) so I think that is acceptable

I bet you had to look them up

slink · Post by **slink** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:52 pm

Presumably this only applies if the pairing have not already competed in (and not been promoted from) div 4, as Munchkin says.

I am not sure...if they have been promoted since they last paddled div 4, then they now fall foul of the rules, and as div 4 paddlers are not ranked, how do you as organiser know they're not just trying it on? I would make them paddle div 2/3 regardless if they were of that ranking. I paddled C2 div 5 (may have even been been novice) some years ago, so does that mean I can compete div 4 C2 now, even though I am now in div 2? It would be impossible to check, so I would use their current ranking and go by the table.
BTW, the comment about having a div 1 paddler and not being able to get a prize that appears on the table, should be a div 1 paddler in C1 or C2...I'll upload a new version.
Hope it's useful!
Steve

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:18 am

I always go 'by the book', if they say they have paddled div 4 before, and they are in the div 4 listings at the back of the yearbook, then they can paddle div 4, if not, the rules about current ranking apply.
Minimum checking, open process.

I also consider carefully C34.5. A competitor who has been in div 1 does not have a right to a prize, but if Kate gets in a boat with a newbie, I give the youngster a prize -encourages them to come back. In fact I usually give them both a prize, as does kate when I used to get in a boat, and the sharp eyed will notice our prizes being recycled either later in the prize giving, or at the next event.

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:24 am

At risk of being criticised for going off on a slight tangent, I think another process/rule should be rejigged.

No offence to anyone but I personally don't, and never have, seen the point of people participating in Div 4 (or any division) when they are clearly much more advanced than one would expect for that division. I have seen this many times and can't see what purpose it serves.
It can't be a challenge for the individual and must be disheartening for those competing against.
In an instance where the numbers work out it could be the difference in promotion from Div 4 for a youngster,
Is this Division supposed to be about encouraging youngsters in or have I missed the point.

I reiterate, I'm not singling anyone out as I have seen this happen many times at many venues

Last time I saw it in Div 4 was 30 Jul Div 4 at Abbey and I remember looking at the time of the Div 4 winner compared to Div 2's and judges.

Now maybe this got picked up and if so I would assume that the second place Div 4 was granted promotion but I don't know

No I suspect people just bypass

Competitors of proven ability may apply for Ranking Status
giving full supporting evidence why they should not have to
begin in Division 4.

Simply because it is quicker

anna-lou · Post by **anna-lou** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:45 am

Its ok for munchkin currently ranked in Prem/1 and div 1 to say the rules are fine as they are and understood.

But as stated by carealto and boatmum the rules are unclear, i as a div 1 and prem/1 paddler also see them as unclear- if something is not working and has clearly caused confusion with people being entered into the wrong classes- why not make an effort to change it.

The confusion appears to be with div 4 paddlers- who clearly are not experienced with the rules and therefore need a simple explanation as to what they can and cant paddle.

Also probably alot more useful for organisers as they are clearly confused for wrong entries to be accepted and a more simple ruling would avoid time consuming/ confusion at an already busy control room!

slink · Post by **slink** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:09 am

Competitors of proven ability may apply for Ranking Status
giving full supporting evidence why they should not have to
begin in Division 4.

All well and good, but I met a paddler a couple of weeks ago (who is a coach) who had never tried slalom. I told him about our event at Alva, and he came along. We quickly told him some of the rules on Saturday morning, and he raced. He won...and would have won div 3 as well. It would probably have been impossible to get ranking status in the timescale, so he raced div 4. If we had insisted on ranking status, he would probably have never tried slalom, as it is, he may come back for more. I do not think div 4 is about encouraging youngsters - I think it's about encouraging all! In fact we spent a lot of effort trying to get some of the clubs adults to race at the weekend, as even if they never race again, they've got a better idea, can see the attraction, and may come along to help a bit more.

BTW - he didn't win div 3 on Sunday!

slink · Post by **slink** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:19 am

I always go 'by the book', if they say they have paddled div 4 before, and they are in the div 4 listings at the back of the yearbook, then they can paddle div 4, if not, the rules about current ranking apply.

But isn't that the point...where does it say that in the book, and what if they didn't race last season?

One of my C2 partners and I were in Div 4 for ages even after promotions! Another partner and I were "uplifted" to Div 2/3 by an organiser as we were both ranked paddlers and I had to point out that the organiser was wrong as we were a pre-exisiting crew and could not be "uplifted" until we earnt promotion. There is nothing in the rules that allows for implied promotion and nor should there be.

Does that come down to the lack of crews, and the fact that your times were compared to K1M rather than other boats in the same class? How were your results compared to those in div 2/3...it could be that you should have been in the higher division, but due to the ability of the K1M at those events, or the nature of the courses (Cardington springs to mind), that the C2 was handicapped, and hence no match for the men's times.

I think the rules about who should paddle in what class are fine, if you read through them in order, but the bit about if you've paddled div 4 before, as far as I can see is not stated...and then you get the whole thing about they should have applied for a bib BEFORE paddling div 2/3, a conversation I have already had with the Slalom Committee after stopping Alex & Lindsay competing at an event before they had got their bib

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:33 am

slink wrote:
I always go 'by the book', if they say they have paddled div 4 before, and they are in the div 4 listings at the back of the yearbook, then they can paddle div 4, if not, the rules about current ranking apply.

But isn't that the point...where does it say that in the book, and what if they didn't race last season?

One of my C2 partners and I were in Div 4 for ages even after promotions! Another partner and I were "uplifted" to Div 2/3 by an organiser as we were both ranked paddlers and I had to point out that the organiser was wrong as we were a pre-exisiting crew and could not be "uplifted" until we earnt promotion. There is nothing in the rules that allows for implied promotion and nor should there be.

Does that come down to the lack of crews, and the fact that your times were compared to K1M rather than other boats in the same class? How were your results compared to those in div 2/3...it could be that you should have been in the higher division, but due to the ability of the K1M at those events, or the nature of the courses (Cardington springs to mind), that the C2 was handicapped, and hence no match for the men's times.

I think the rules about who should paddle in what class are fine, if you read through them in order, but the bit about if you've paddled div 4 before, as far as I can see is not stated...and then you get the whole thing about they should have applied for a bib BEFORE paddling div 2/3, a conversation I have already had with the Slalom Committee after stopping Alex & Lindsay competing at an event before they had got their bib

Sometimes we would have held our own in Div 2/3, sometimes not. It depended on where we raced, but yes, often we didn't get promoted because some good paddler raced in Div 4 (as they are entitled to do) and it meant we were not fast enough.

There is no where in the rules that say we should stay in Div 4 but conversely there is no where in the rules that state you get automatic promotion! Therefore, if you are making them paddle in Div 2/3 even if they are an existing crew you are creating your own rule that doesn't exist...

There is nothing in the rules to allow someone who gets promoted in the K1 to get automatic promotion in the C1 and no one expects them to so why expect it in the C2?

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:35 am

anna-lou wrote:Its ok for munchkin currently ranked in Prem/1 and div 1 to say the rules are fine as they are and understood.

Anna-Louise, there is one thing that I really hate and that's people putting words in my mouth!!!

Read back through my posts and as far as I can see I have not said that. In fact, I was debating this point with Mr Munchkin last night who is trying to re-write the rules...

slink · Post by **slink** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:39 am

There is nothing in the rules to allow someone who gets promoted in the K1 to get automatic promotion in the C1 and no one expects them to so why expect it in the C2?

That's not necessarily true...
B2.2 Any competitor wishing to compete in C1 and currently ranked higher than division 2 in any other category, must compete in division 3, unless it is considered more appropriate for them to compete in a higher division.

Therefore if you get promoted to div 1 in K1, you DO get promoted in C1, regardless of whether you have ever paddled in div 4 or not...

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:25 am

But thats a new comeptitor not someone who has already started in Div 4. If you are in Div 2 K1 and want to try C1 you start in Div 4, you then get promoted in the K1 to Div 1, you stay in Div 4 C1 until promoted as right as you have already started in that division.

Though the use of the word "must" is wrong because it also implies that if you are promoted from Div 3 in the C1 it is tough luck, you stay in Div 3 until someone considers it more appropriate for you to be promoted!

slink · Post by **slink** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:49 am

But thats a new comeptitor not someone who has already started in Div 4

Sorry Munchkin, on that I have to disagree, because that is definitely not what it says. It may be that it is what it means, but here again there is a discrepancy, and to "go by the book", an organiser would have to make them paddle div 3.

Though the use of the word "must" is wrong because it also implies that if you are promoted from Div 3 in the C1 it is tough luck, you stay in Div 3 until someone considers it more appropriate for you to be promoted!

That would happen if you were to be promoted by points in the C1, as the rules would "consider it more appropriate for you to be promoted", so I don't think that's an issue.

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:40 pm

slink wrote: It would probably have been impossible to get ranking status in the timescale, so he raced div 4. If we had insisted on ranking status, he would probably have never tried slalom,

Yep and fair enough.

However, my point is that if winning by a huge percentage, akin to a higher division there should be a provision to apply retrospectively for a ranking status. The organiser should maybe have carte blanche to decide if they are racing in an inappropriate division and up them to the next division - in your case Div 3. Thereby simply sorting the matter and providing a true Div 4 with promotion at the appropriate level.

This rules business is a minefield as proved by this thread and others before and no doubt others to come