Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

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HaRVey
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Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by HaRVey » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:17 pm

An open discussion; to test the water on this issue...

Situation:
In a Div 3/4 race at Stone, the course designer adjusted the course at lunch. The poles went from being fairly low, to fairly high.
Adjustment is often a requirement at Stone, as the river usually rises 2-3 inches through the day.
Paddling as a judge, I took my runs, 1st Run at the end of First runs and the 2nd run after the 30min lunch break, at the start of Second runs.

Result:
The result; I improved by 5 seconds on a 75 second course. (7.5% improvement)

Validation:
Both of these runs I considered to be equally good, for the course I was completing.
On Stone, after 15 years of paddling, I am an EXPERT.
On races such as the Oct Div 3/4 this year, I improved by 0.4 seconds between each run completed in a similar style, but without course adjustment. This is typical of racing.

My Conclusion:
Pole heights make a big difference to the length of time it takes to complete a course.


Concern:
Over the past two months, I have seen more than one race, where the course has been adjusted, between 1st and 2nd runs. At Interclubs, at 3/4 races, at Prems. From my conclusion this makes a difference to the race outcome.

In the worst cases, some paddlers have asked to complete their runs early, or are paddling multiple categories and paddle out of turn, therefore completing both runs before this adjustment is made.

In other cases, the field of competitors is disadvantaged by the change of height. (i.e. a high pole, which makes a move flow, is changed, to a low pole, to make it awkward, sticky, shallow, or even in some cases rocky, due to the extra width required to manouver around the pole.)

In some cases where this change occurs, only just before runs are due to start, those paddlers who paddle early in a category are disadvantaged further, compared to their peers, who paddle later in the category.


Observation:
Many jury members are experienced individuals who remember the days of aggregate runs.
Many course designers are paddlers, either present or recent.
Both are trying to achieve a fair test for the paddlers.
This is not necessarily the same TEST, but they need to make sure it is FAIR across the day.

Questions:
Who has responsibility for the pole heights once the course has been set?

Should we set out new guidance for Event Organisers/Jury/Course Designers, on the setting of pole heights for BEST RUN COUNTS racing? (Including the requirement to remove the need to change Pole Heights across the day (except in changing environments, but in both cases) with approval from both the Course designer/s and Jury together) :?:

djberriman
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by djberriman » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:22 pm

Pole heights do make a big difference but generally they are altered due to changes in water certainly this was the case at Interclubs and Abbey.

Generally I think its the water that makes the real difference, as it drops courses generally become easier and especially on shallow courses the youngsters go faster and the vets slow down.

I often think (as do some others from what I conversations I have had) that pole heights are often too high making some gates difficult to judge and giving an advantage to some paddlers.

Neil H
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by Neil H » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:08 pm

I used to have a problem getting throught the gates, being wider than the gateline and all

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boatmum
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by boatmum » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:36 pm

At the risk of sounding very nerdy - the rules are very clear ...

C27.3 The lower end of the pole should be approximately 20 cm
above the water, and the pole must not be put in motion by
the water. The pole adjusting system must enable easy
adjustment for each pole on every gate.

So its up to the Jury Chair to make sure this is the case. There is always the option to protest I guess if this isnt being enforced??

HaRVey
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by HaRVey » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:40 pm

Nerdy or not, its good to get the rules clearly outlined and defined.

However, the issue as I see it, is not the rule on height; but when the gates are set and who does this process before first runs/demo runs (or in some cases half way through the day).

The issue being on many occasions, the course is approved (or demos are done) before the pole heights are checked. The pole heights are 'played' with, during or after demo's, but not set properly. Thus Section judges suddenly realise (after 100 paddlers have been down) that the pole/gate is too difficult to judge, so it is lowered at the end of the class.

This obviously happens more often after K1M as, especially the top K1M, paddlers try and eek out the most out of every pole, judging their position to cm or mm accuracy.

So at the risk of shooting myself in the foot, I am asking that the Course Designers/Section Judges/Chair of Jury turns up early and makes adjustments needed immediately (they could use DEMO's/JUDGES Runs to confirm their setting) (aiming for lower poles is fairer than too high and then having to change them across the day).

As I was trying to elude in my topic starter about a new description for (something like)

Guidance for JURY/COURSE DESIGNERS/ EVENT ORGNAISERs:

The setting of the course including pole heights should be carried out before DEMO's, the course should be all but, approved BEFORE demonstration runs. Both the designated COURSE DESIGNER and CHAIR of the JURY, have a joint responsibility for this, and must both be present at this time.
Adjustments to the position of the gates after Demo's, should not happen (nor need to happen) but may occur on limited occasions.
There should be NO Adjustment of the course after the first ranking competitor has started, except in changing river environments where an effort is made to maintain the pole height relative to the river surface for fairness.

Where a pole height/placement has a negative impact on the judging of a gate/sequence/pole, there should be a JUDGES REPORT (in Organisers Pack) submitted at the end of the day by the section/gate judges, detailing which particular areas (if any) were an issue, and submit this to the CHAIR of the JURY, who will send this in with their EVENT JURY REPORT.


In almost every case, I believe the issues are caused by individuals who feel they have the best interest of the event at heart. They are not trying to cause problems or impact on racing. They are the volunteers which are the very back bone of our events.

This is why I believe there should be guidance to remove any doubt and hence remove the issues BEFORE race day, not on it, it is not a good situation to be in when Competitors are complaining about judges, or judges are complaining about competitors, the competitor should not have to protest, or raise a problem, or lodged a complaint with the organiser.

Specific Note:
If judges are worried about the pole heights, they should also watch DEMO's/PRACTICE, and bring up concerns with CHAIR of the JURY at this point.

If they are not prepared to do this (which in my opinion should not be a requirement to be a section/gate judge, as they already have enough to do) then

They must have faith in their Chair of the Jury/Course Designers, on the understanding that the pole heights are set correctly at the start of the day, and barring a course malfunction/ or a change of the river conditions, which would effect much more than just one gate on the course, that the gates will stay exactly where they are.

Section judges, (just like gate judges at lower division races) should not have the course adjusted at any point after the racing has started, especially for the reason 'it helps me to judge', but it is instead the Course Designers/Chair of the Jury's responsibility to monitor the pole heights throughout the race day.
(And only where absolutely necessary adjust pole heights to maintain fairness on the course, not to make the judges 'role', easier).

Note:
I believe this should be a joint responsibility between designated Course Designer/Chair of the Jury, as setting of the pole height often impacts on how difficult the course is.
Sometimes a low pole will make a move not flow as well. Course designers have the flexibility to adjust their course to allow for this, and will sometimes set the pole higher to allow their 'move' to flow. Where this is likely to impact on Judging, the Chair of Jury, can thus inform the Course designer of this and a compromise be found.
Where Chair of Jury may wish to lower the pole/s excessively, the Course Designer, can offer an alternative view point, again to find the compromise for the race.

:?:

BaldockBabe
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by BaldockBabe » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:31 am

Im not sure about lower division events as I am not usually in control at them but for the Interclubbs and Div 1/ P events the poles are usually only adjusted for the following reasons:

1. Section judges request alterations at the start of the event or after judges runs as the poles are too high/ low.

2. Either judges request alterations during the event due to changes in water levels. At which point the gates are never altered during a class. The start for the next class is held until the gate is altered.

3. A pole is "taken out" by a paddler and needs replacing/ adjusting. As far as I recall over the past couple of seasons this is the only time the pole has been dealt with within class (and adjustment only if severe) - for obvious reasons.

I am not always in control or on start/ finish but I would say I am over 70% of the time and I can't recall it being changed for other reasons and I think the above ones are fair. They also reflect what happens at International events from my understanding...

HaRVey
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by HaRVey » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:03 pm

I concur, these sound like fair reasons. And at an international no one would dare alter the course, unless there was over whelming evidence to do so.
The problem being this is not what actually happened at interclubs or else where.

The actual reflection at Interclubs 2012
On Saturday,
The course was adjusted at Lunch Time, lowering all the poles because apparently the river level had 'dropped'!!

Outcome,
Div 1 Men - 8 of the top 10 went slower on their second run than first
Prem B Men - 7 of top 10 went slower on their second run than first
Prem A Men - 8 of top 10 went slower on their second run than first.

I am no statistical expert, but this seems to me to show an over whelming negative impact on the course. :oops:
And in my opinion, I have been going to Interclubs since 1998, there was no change in water level, nor any need to change the pole heights.

As I was winning after first runs, this actually helped me. Hence I believe it is my duty to complain for the rest of the field. It ultimately makes the sport a one run race, and not a fair race across the day. But simply a best on that first run. If you have aggregate runs, then you remove this issue, but we don't have AGGREGATE RUNs any more, and hence this is a much bigger issue.

On Sunday, it was a worse error.
The Course was not adjusted at Lunch time (nor checked). The last breakout had dropped for unknown reasons (I presume because one of the previous competitors had hit the pole and it had dropped.
But It was ~1 inch from the surface of the water.
The second runs race was started. K1W Teams second runs, one team completed the course (Team No. 1 - Hence I was watching, was Stafford and Stone CC), two of the girls picked up touches each on the seam line of their slalom boats as the exited around the ridiculously low pole.
So, Bill Simpson, also watching at this point, and was the course designer, raised the pole to a proper height (lifting it approximately 6 inches), before the next team (Team 2) of competitors came down.

Hence, knowing Bill I told him that wasn't acceptable. He was obviously aware his actions were wrong, but he believed he was doing what was best for the race. He said 'Well what am I supposed to do? Its obviously far too low!'

Outcome:
No Comments were made to the jury. No request for the Team manager of S&SCC was made to explain the issue. The penalties were a direct result of the low pole, and stood. The time take trying to avoid the poles was obviously increased, and nothing was done to resolve this obvious inconsistency.

As it happened the S&SCC K1W Team, were happy to make it to the bottom of the course after capsizes earlier in the day, and felt they didn't want to risk having to do a re-run.
But this in no way removes the issue. This in no way resolves the unfair approach to the days racing.

The problem being this is the incident i saw with my own eyes, how often does this happen when I am not watching, or not at a race. Coupled with the changes on Saturday, it leaves me thinking that volunteers/Jury of the sport need guidance to update the way in which they interpret the rules, to enable a fair competition for competitors on BEST RUN COUNTS Racing.

Whilst we are on the subject of being specific.... Don't think these issues are only limited to Interclubs, or my first example at the Div 3/4 race in Stone.

The Graveyard Prem race, at the End of September.
The Course was set the racing started. One K1M paddler completed his first run at the start of the category, and then took his second run 45mins later at his designated run time. Hence having complete 2 runs before the category had finished. (this is not a particular issue, he like most paddlers was caught out on his first run by the excellent tricky course. On his second run he improved massively securing an excellent run time.)

After K1M first runs, the Section Judge at gate 5, decided that the pole (down in the eddie) was too high to judge, easily) So had the Jury lower the pole. This meant the move went from being a flowing move to an awkward move, where many people hit rocks, hit the bottom, hit the pole, or wasted several seconds in avoiding it.

When I approached the organiser of the event and course designer.
His comment; 'Absolutely no poles, have changed height!.'
When I insisted that I along with several other paddlers in the top 10 disagreed and felt the pole had changed; His Comment; 'I am the course designer and organiser. I have not been asked to adjust any poles, and though the bearer lines might have contracted/expanded the poles are at the same height as they were on first runs!'
I agreed to disagree, and would leave it with him.

Later, the organiser approached me, to inform me that I was indeed correct! He was apologetic and said that there shouldn't have been a change, and he had now told the jury not to make any more changes without him there!

Hence, I come back to the issue of guidance required, when section judges/jury personnel do not know the impact that their actions have on the race. Whether they speed up or slow down the race course, this is an inappropriate action if done at any point after the first run has been started.

This also has an effect on %, so I'm sure GB Canoeing would not appreciate the changes that are beginning to occur very frequently.


On a positive note, to state that this is not a issue that affects everyone, at the McConkey, the Jury (Tracey W and Mark
S) did an excellent job.
There was a low pole on gate 12, Where the Section judge had asked at the start of the day for it to be placed only 2 inches off the water, (the rules do state 20cm's (~8inchs) but at the olympics this was generally 8-10 inches, due to the 'surgey' nature of the course) but back to the positive, This pole remained low, throughout DIv 1 1st runs, Semi Final Prems, and Div 1 2nd runs.
It was looked at and adjusted before the Prem Finals only. This is the perfect interpretation of the rule, as everyone in the Final is on Zero, and only this run counts.

Hence I come back to the need for guidance.
How can people be working within the rules, and be able to interpret them in two different manners to come out with different racing implications for those people taking part.

Now I know none of the events would happen without those people there to support it. So lets help those people who are volunteering to produce a race for the paddlers, and guide them so that they can produce the best racing environment for all the paddlers, and remove the possibility of contention (or misinterpretation of an individuals comments or actions) before the race day has even arrived.
Last edited by HaRVey on Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nick Penfold
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by Nick Penfold » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:16 pm

HaRVey wrote:Now I know none of the events would happen without those people there to support it, but ultimately those people are volunteering to produce a race for the paddlers, not the paddlers turning up to make the volunteers feel like they are important.
Robin: you have a real gift for letting your quite reasonable suggestions slip into snide remarks about the second-class citizens who help make your races happen and are generally doing their best. Don't do it.

HaRVey
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by HaRVey » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:28 pm

Hi Nick,
Thank you, for your observation. That was not my intention, this was a long post, and I was finishing in a hurry.

Flyhigh3
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by Flyhigh3 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:47 am

..or is there an argument for going back to aggregate runs? Having been around it less than 5 years I don't know the pros/cons, what was the reason it was changed?

By the way, just to say I am really pleased to see these sorts of things discussed openly and constructively on the forum. I feel it is often quite hard to raise some of the issues you see and wonder about at times at events without being viewed negatively. I guess the only shame is that I expect even this forum is exclusive in some respects.

But re pole heights - I agree with HarVey on this one that they do make a difference, and can make a course effectively be based on first (or second) runs in the situations identified

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oldschool
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by oldschool » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:58 am

They went back to single runs to tie in with ICF rules

Flyhigh3
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by Flyhigh3 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:26 am

and why did ICF change?

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davebrads
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by davebrads » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:20 am

I suspect it was because the aggregate run system meant that top paddlers were often eliminated in the heats through making a single mistake on one of the runs. Also there is an argument that the aggregate run system favoured a steadier approach to the racing which is perhaps not what the sport's governing body wanted to promote.

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boatmum
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by boatmum » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:06 pm

Im pretty sure that all rules apply to all races regardless of division, so if pole heights are changed at say a lunchtime then presumably the Jury chair has to sign it off after discussion with the course designer and the other jury members. I think if that is not done then there is probably cause for a protest? or at least a coherent explanation as to why the pole heights are changed?

Or have I fundamentally missed something in the argument

Bill
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Re: Jury/Course Designers and Pole Heights

Post by Bill » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:39 am

HaRVey wrote: And at an international no one would dare alter the course, unless there was over whelming evidence to do so.
At the 2009 World Championships the poles were raised between the 1st and 2nd runs of the K1M heats.
Seu d'Urgell is an artificial, pumped course and there was no change in weather, so there was no apparent reason to change to pole heights.

As a result, only the top 3 (!) times from the first run were good enough to make it into the semi-final.

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