MASTERS LEAGUE - THE NATIONAL LEAGUE TABLE FOR THE 35+

MikeH · Post by **MikeH** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:53 pm

Spiderman wrote:Thanks Oldandslow Yes, it would have been good to get all DOB's but as this is a "test season", it is not really important that we have them all. It is enough to see that the potential is there for this to form a very large part of the slalom scene to a great many competitors. Hopefully, those who did not appear in any specific "M" age band will make sure they do next season if this is formally adopted. It was essentially due to not getting "bulk" DOB's from the lower divisions where these were made available to me for higher divisions. I am particularly grateful to NP for this and for a great deal of input from him during the 2009 season.

MikeH. I hope you understand my missing you out of this test season in error. Sincere apologies. I have had more than one or two messages and emails as you can imagine! Obviously, in a formal version of the Masters League, any such oversight would be rectified. However, given that this season was a "bench test", forgive me if I do not revise the paperwork at this late stage. If should be quite straight forward to view the results and slot yourself in at the appropriate points total of course.

Accordingly, if anyone is thinking of raising the same matter and passing on DOB info now, sorry but it is too late for the 2009 unofficial season. You gotta be in it to win it as they say, so please make sure that (a) you support the introduction of the Masters League and (b), if it is introduced for 2010, that you ensure your DOB is stated on your Bib Application and that you opt into the Masters League. I am hopeful that all Bib application information will be passed onto me so that I can properly administer the League next season. I think that if it is adopted, it should be understood that if you have not ensured that your DOB information has resulted in you being placed in a Masters age band by the last race of the season, your result will NOT be featured in the end of season Masters League results list.

PP

Yes, I do understand why/how it was missed I was just reminding you

Ok, for us 'new oldgits on the block' how do we "support the introduction of the Masters League " ?

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:51 pm

Chhers Mike. Either attend the Slalom Committee ACM on the 28th November 2009 at 10am (Registration from 9.30) at the National Water Sports Centre, Holme Pierrepont, Adbolton Lane, NOTTINGHAM or ask the representative from your Club to attend and chirp up on your, and other over 35's behalf.

PP

GreenPeter · Post by **GreenPeter** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:43 pm

ACM do you get a vote if you turn up? Or is it only clubs who vote?

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:22 pm

Votes are cast by club reps, but traditionally all can speak and affect how those reps with discretion cast their votes

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:59 pm

Oops. Apologies for any typo's on the published paperwork folks. Cant fix it now as its all been uploaded and emailed to different people however, I did fix a bit of a "royal" fopar above easily enough! Will try harder next year

Also, the Proposal and Appendix linked in an earlier post above does not print out very easily due to some lengthy tables in the Appendix. I have now re-saved the same data in a printable version and added that link in the same post above.

PP

Fat old man · Post by **Fat old man** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:58 pm

Spiderman,

Thanks for all the effort you've put into producing the rankings, unofficial or not it adds a lot of interest and a bit of fun into the overall proceedings.

Keep up the good work next year!

sbm · Post by **sbm** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:54 pm

I agree. Thanks for putting in the work peter. I had a lot of fun looking where I came vs other old gits ! Will it be up and live through the season next year so we can re-gain our motivation asthe races progress?

Congrats to my old mucca Bill Hanham on the M60 crown.

Cheers.
Stuart.

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:15 am

I think that the Masters League is a step forward many have said good things about it and there have been serious issues with Prem/1 Vets with complicated points system and few competitors. The current proposals seem to address this and as it doesn't affect me them I'll happily allow those Div 1/Prem guys slog out the detail.

However, why is a multiplier of 1.1 being suggested to Div2/3 times before comparison and points? This makes absolutely no sense. Multipliers have been applied to other classes for sound reasons, to ensure promotion takes place appropriately and a sensible method of ranking hence the changes this year being proposed for C1W class. But the Vets get a direct comparison with the K1 men, this works and requires no changes. Am I cynical but is the only reason for the change to argue for the exclusion of Vets from the Masters as with the change no direct comparison could then be made? If there is a good reason I'm sorry I can't see it, maybe someone could enlighten me.

I propose that the new proposal should be adopted but with no multiplier - but I'm not sure how the Div3 Vets think about the half points, I know there are few but they should have a say. Likewise there hasn't been any women vets for some years but I recently spoke to someone considering this for next year, so again how would the new scheme work for women? Before we throw the baby away with the bath water these issues need considering.

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:42 pm

I am in regular contact with Mike Carter here at VKC who is the Vets bib officer. I think I am well placed to say that anything related to the Vets rules is nowt to do with the Masters proposal. Mike is both diligent and very supportive of the Vets system (whilst I am publicly not) and he does a great job of all things Vet related. He is enthusiastic about the Vets rule changes and wishes to see those who do not wish to race along with the rest of us continue to race their own system. He is definately the best man to open conversation with about this but he is not online and still favours ye goode olde pene and paper!

No direct comparrison can be made with the proposed Masters or with current DV paddlers in terms of finish places for reasons I have set out above. It does not matter what system is adopted by Vets as it is entirely seperate from the rest of the slalom community.

This is, of course, a thread for the Masters League Proposals so I do not wish to see too much debate here about the Vets system please. It may warrant a thread of its own. However, there are so few involved in that system I really do hope that the Masters league is adopted and that it more fairly provides slalom competition for all over 35, enticing those in Vets to jump ship to race in the real world - like I did

My view remains that we are all racers. As such we should all race in fair and reasonable competition. I do not agree with non promotion or non demotion although I understand several paddlers like this. I just dont get it. With the fairly common issue of judge shortages I would have thought the official event caters for anyone to paddle any course at any level.

Thanks for the kind words above. I am very pleased to see that the slalom committee has put the motion in the Agenda (many thanks to all involved there also of course) so now I am just hoping that we Masters, thats the largest sector of every division (apart from prem) supports this and benefits from it from hereon.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:47 am

I am a little concerend that the motion to the ACM seems to reintroduce the strict banding, so that a good 60 year old cannot win the M35 category. Is this an oversight?

I am minded to move an amendment to change the banding to having 'x'th birthday on or before 31 December, rather than
M35 - Aged 35 to 39 M40 - Aged 40 to 44
M45 - Aged 45 to 49 M50 - Aged 50 to 54
M55 - Aged 55 to 59 M60 - Aged 60 to 64
M65 - Aged 65 to 69 M70 - Aged 70 to 74

e.g M35 having 35th Birthday on or before 31st December in the year concerned
M40 having 40th Birthday on or before 31st December in the year concerned
M45 having 45th Birthday on or before 31st December in the year concerned
......

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:57 pm

Oh dear, that old chestnut again? Erm, I thought I had eaten enough humble pie in your company Colin! lol. The system I have outlined in my report to the Slalom Committee was intended to allow anyone older to beat anyone younger in the Masters League. Indeed, the unofficial results that I already produced for the 2008 season shows several older Masters beating younger Masters. I am hoping that, for once, I am right and you are wrong but I am not holding my breath! On the basis that you will attend the ACM I am sure you will ensure that, however it is worded, it allows for old Masters to beat younger Masters but not the other way around.

...........................erm...........

I just looked at my Report and in that I stated a suggested Motion as below. I do not know if this has been varied or why you have suggested a change as I seem to have proposed the same as what you have suggested is a change above? Anyway, my suggested Motion is as follows:-

Quote...

Motion

For the assistance of the committee, a proposed motion follows.

2.4 currently states:-

Divisional Veterans. Any competitor who is eligible to become a Veteran but chooses to remain in the divisional system may be identified as a Divisional Veteran. Such competitors should mark “DV” and date of birth on their entry card, and will compete as ordinary ranked competitors.

This should be revised as follows or similar:-

Masters. Any competitor whose 35th birthday falls on or before the 31st December in the year concerned and chooses to remain in the divisional system may be identified as a Master.

Masters League. Masters compete as ordinary ranked competitors whose ranking points are also those used to calculate placings within the Masters League. The Masters League is divided into 5 year age bands as follows:-

M35 - Aged 35 to 39
M40 - Aged 40 to 44
M45 - Aged 45 to 49
M50 - Aged 50 to 54
M55 - Aged 55 to 59
M60 - Aged 60 to 64
M65 - Aged 65 to 69
M70 - Aged 70 to 74

These bands are not exhaustive and may be extended to cater for all ages. Masters should indicate upon their entry cards which “M” designation age band of the Masters League they fall within. A competitors age is taken as that attained on their birthday on or before the 31st December in the year concerned and this age is to be stated upon the Bib Application Form. In the case of C2 crews, the youngest competitor will determine the age band.

The Masters League runs within independent divisions and points scored by Masters competing in higher age bands will also be counted in all lower age bands. The points of Masters in lower age bands will not be counted in any higher age band. If a Master does not wish to compete in the Masters League, they can opt-out and continue to compete as a Master with an “M” designation without any age band.

The Masters League will apply to both genders, all divisions and all boat classes. At slalom competitions, Masters of both genders in each division and boat class are entitled to receive prizes in accordance with usual quorate criteria at the discretion of the organiser.

At the end of the season, winners of each Masters League age band will be recognised as “Masters Champions” of their respective age bands with the “British National Masters Champion” being the highest placed Master in the national ranking list irrespective of age band.

Unquote.

I think this sets things out clearly and I think it does seek to achieve what you suggest as a change Colin. No doubt that if this Motion is carried that it will be sorted out in the format we both seem to agree upon

PP

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:04 pm

Ah! I have now quickly looked at the Agenda. Seems they missed out the part that clarifies when the ages are calculated for anyone over 35. However, as the date for calculation Masters qualification is 35 on or before the 31st december of the year concerned, I think it would follow that all ages for banding would be similarly calculated. That deals with the age datum date.

So I am wondering now why you think that an older Master cannot beat a younger one Colin. The Agenda Motion does include "The Masters League runs within independent divisions and points scored by Masters competing in higher age bands will also be counted in all lower age bands. The points of Masters in lower age bands will not be counted in any higher age band." so I think its ok? Whadidimiss?

PP

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:22 pm

Just a worry that people (like me) will not read the whole thing, and miss the last bit. My turn on the humble pie!! Are you going to be there to defend the motion or are you relying on the rest of us to ensure it gets through?

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:21 pm

I am off to Asia that weekend until Jan 6th and am clawing all the available hours to squeeze in all the things I need to do before I go. Attending the ACM was one of those things but its looking very doubtful with a wedding to photograph the same day! Some people just do not think about my plans before proposing!

I would be grateful (and I reckon many other over 35's will be too) if all who attend speak in favour of the Motion. I think the Slalom Committee have done a stirling job of making the Agenda twice as thick with the Masters Motion. As (a) if I recall correctly its Clubs that vote not individuals and (b) I really have nothing to add, I reckon it will be dealt with fair and square irrespective of my attendance.

If I were to add one thing it would be to highlight the potential impact of the League upon padlers over 35 as I really think it will motivate them to either return or take up slalom and give them a very realistic and enjoyable challenge. As I was a bit down the order in my age band in this trial season, if it is adopted, it will certainly give me extra kick for 2010!

"Imma lean, mean, paddlin' machine!"

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:08 pm

Any news?