Undercut - definition

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:32 pm

What's the definiton of an undercut for a C2?

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:35 pm

As in all boats, part of the head crosses the gate line the wrong way. the boat can go under with no penalty.
Special for C2 boat 'keel' must not leave the gate between one head crossing the gate and the other head crossing.

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:45 pm

I pretty much spent 23 years being educated and I have to, regretfully, admit I just don't understand this. I don't know whether to feel inadequate, old, stupid, or a victim of the comprehensive system!!!!

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:06 am

Do not worry you are not the only one Paul!!!!!!!!

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:34 am

Why do we still have this UK only rule? It is no longer in the ICF rules and I see no benefit from it being retained. Can someone raise this under rule tidy up or propose a motion to the ACM?

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:15 am

Well I just read the negotiation rules and I can't wrap me head round a couple of bits. I'll try and put it into words given a bit of time.........watch this space!

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:20 pm

It's not that hard - just remove the first UK amendment to rule 28.6.1 - unless we are talking about something completely different?

But it's too late for this year in any case unless someone on the slalom committee is prepared to raise this change on your behalf.

Ken Trollope · Post by **Ken Trollope** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:45 am

The UK part of rule 28.6.1 is for clarification of the ICF rule. removing it will not change the rule.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:12 am

And that is the interpretation used internationaly.

The reference to undercutting in the rules is C29.5. In this context undercutting is part of boat, paddle, or body (not head) going under the the poles without touching. it is the same for any boat.

The only 'wrinkle' for a C2 is that it is possible to undercut a gate with the centre of the boat (between the paddlers) If neither head crosses the gate line, then negotiting the gate has not started and there is no penalty. if however one head crosses the gate line, then C28.6.1 applies

Still Mud?

good for the complexion anyway

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:54 am

I always thought it a bit funny when doing the judges exam and there was a diagram of a C2 doing exactly that, thinking that it was impossible that it would happen in a real race.

However I was Chairman of the Jury at Stone recently, and a C2 managed it. The judge awarded a 50, but then thought the better of it after he had a chance to think about it.

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:37 pm

UK C28.4.1 The Gate line is the actual area between the poles (and
the vertical extension from the foot of each pole to the bed
of the river) even if deflected by wind, water, paddle, boat or
Competitor.

If this rule applies then hasn't a C2 doing that entered the gate line with out the head of the paddler thus contradicting 28.2 and 28.3 and 28.6.1 UK and 28.6.2

?

Nick Penfold · Post by **Nick Penfold** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:51 pm

If that were true for the bit of C2 between the paddlers, it would be true for any part of the deck of a C1 or K1. Anyway, the international and UK interpretation is to allow such a pass.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:17 pm

and 28.5.1 says that negotiation starts when you hit a pole, or the head hits a gate line.

Slide under without touching and you have not started the attempt as no heads crossed teh gate line.
Touch while sliding under, and you have started the attempt, but the rules you refer to say the keel must be on the gate line at the same time as the head (not vice versa), and that heads must go through in a single passage - no passage started until a head crosses the gate line.

Think of a kayak coming down river,ducking the nose under a breakout. The keel crossed in the wrong direction, but not a 50 as the head did not cross the gate line. As Nick says the situation is similar.

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:39 pm

The UK part of rule 28.6.1 is for clarification of the ICF rule. removing it will not change the rule.

And that is the interpretation used internationaly.

Could we ask for this to be clarified by the Slalom Technical Committee, as the ICF rule as written is open to interpretation, e.g. front man negotiates gate, boat leaves gate line without back man negaotiating gate, back man goes back and negotiates gate - all cleanly? This would take less time than being awarded a 50 second penalty and seems a fair interpretation of the rule as written, as long as you aren't competing in the UK.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:43 pm

Having worked quite a bit with Jean Michel Prono recently, and invigilated the ICF judges exam at Bratislava I can confirm that the scenario you describe should be a 50 anywhere in the world