Payment for Races

[alldaypaddler]

This is going to be a bit of a rant, but hey - it's in rants and raves!

Why are we still paying for races by cheque?

My bank don't even offer a chequebook any more (not even when you request one). There has GOT to be a better way! I've heard that to set up online payments for clubs is expensive/not really viable, but does anyone have any ideas? What about direct bank transfers? I've been told that this may not work because some clubs don't have online banking so can't tell if people have paid until they get a statement, but it really is very easy to set it up.

Has anyone got a way of sorting this out, and bringing us into the 21st century?

[campbell]

There are plenty of online entry systems that can be very easily adopted eg https://www.sportsentrysolutions.com/

Or simply Google 'online entry system' for more.

We should definitely get into the 21st century!

[Dee]

Rant on.....

Alldaypaddler:

Whilst I agree with the sentiment. It isn't as easy as it seems.

Most clubs probably have community accounts requiring 2 signatures; the banks don't provide internet access to these accounts as it would give one person access to the money rather than needing two signatures. Unfortunately the only read only access we have found so far only shows the last 4 entries which is useless at this time of year.

All mechanisms like Paypal etc charge for the privilege - would everyone be willing to see an increase in fees to cover the additional cost.

Slalom is not the only time cheques are required so it is not totally unreasonable to expect people to have a cheque book even if very rarely used. I don't know which bank it is that doesn't offer cheque books as the vast majority seem to do so, if it was me I'd change my bank!

Having said all that at Shepperton we are currently looking at other options. We are trying to find a community account that will provide full internet access that we can use for incoming payments and then just transfer across to the main account. Finding one is not as easy as it sounds. It would be easy for me to get such an account in my own name, but if I then pass this on to the next membership secretary/slalom organiser I would remain personally liable for any problems. I do not want to put myself in that position - is that so unfair?

Assuming we do get the account, there will then be the extra job of matching payments to entries. I'm not sure I relish this as I suspect that it wont be quite as easy as it sounds.

campbell:

On-line entry is a separate matter and will only work if we can run cardless events - otherwise the hapless organiser will have to fill them all in and it is bad enough having to fill in the front of the cards for those lazy so and so's who can't be bothered to do it themselves . I'm all for aiming at cardless events, but there will still be issues - just new ones.

Rant off....

[alldaypaddler]

i've never been required to use a cheque for anything except for canoeing.

campbell's idea says that for up to £20 there's only a 40p charge or something. to be honest,when I'm paying £20 anyway, an extra 40p is not going to bother me. there are probably more like it.

The nene 2/3 have online entry and payment. although the running of the event on the day is fairly haphazard, it works. why not just have times on a computer screen like at bucs events?

surely online entry would be easier (once set up) for the clubs than sorting out and filling in all the cards?

another (slightly far-fetched) idea would be to pay a certain amount at the beginning of the season to canoe england/someone (online) who would then pay the clubs when they run their events. so you'd pay for however many races you think you'll do. if this was done (somehow, i said it was far-fetched) with the BCU membership, then you could carry any extra entry you had left over to the next season, and top up your account when needed. that way the BCU (or whoever) would then pay clubs on how many people attended their race.

[Dee]

campbell's idea says that for up to £20 there's only a 40p charge or something. to be honest,when I'm paying £20 anyway, an extra 40p is not going to bother me. there are probably more like it.

Maybe the case, but entries for div 1 are £29 (ie over £20). And would everyone be prepared to pay extra. Administering a slalom takes time and having different charges for different payment methods would be an extra burden.

i've never been required to use a cheque for anything except for canoeing.

You're lucky (and young ). Lots of clubs and societies use cheques as payment mechanisms and there are businesses around who do not take credit cards or charge for their use.

why not just have times on a computer screen like at bucs events?

'cos someone has to write system to display results by gate (fairly easy, but has to be done). Our rules need to be changed to allow us to do this and we have to consider what happens when power fails. As I said, I'm hoping that the trial cardless slaloms will be successful so that we can all move in that direction.

surely online entry would be easier (once set up) for the clubs than sorting out and filling in all the cards?

If it is set up well, yes. Entry system would need to check bib numbers against names though (you would be surprised how many people don't know their bib number). I do agree with you, but haven't got the time, or currently the skills, to set up a secure system that I can rely on. There are also a significant number of paddlers who don't seem to use the web much and still send envelopes for start lists, so we still need an alternative entry system for them.

another (very far-fetched) idea would be to ........

Fixed for you The sport is manned by volunteers - we are not a business! The administration of your suggestion requires a robust system and lots of administration and can you imagine the arguments at the end of the year


Said enough on this topic now - over and out

[MikeR]

I'm going to jump in here and say RBS have been a massive pain with giving me a cheque book for this season, though their personal banking has been sold to Santander, so I can quietly laugh back at them..

I think from a near future point of view, it should be up to the individual clubs to sort out using a cheque-free system if they have someone with the time and energy to do it. Any system will take time to manage, and to some extent, can we really require this when our sport is mainly run by volunteers?

On alldaypaddler's idea, it may be possible however for a central system to be run similarly to an online retailer, so that people can 'buy' their entry for a certain race online (or maybe still use cheque's if they prefer), and then one person can manage sending the money from this central account, for the specific race, to the relevant clubs.

I do think this is all a bit academic until we have a cardless entry system though?

[campbell]

The increased cost of entering online (by using PayPal or an online entry system) is going to be about the same as the cost of an envelope and stamp.... so no extra cost to the competitor compared to the current system.

Why do we need to use cards? Surely a race can run perfectly well without the need for cards - just a laptop with the software required and print outs of results (including a breakdown of where penalties occurred on the printout). This is what happens in most countries. If it is a UK slalom rule that we must use cards, then I suggest there is a proposal to change this at the next AGM.

[John Sturgess]

Such a resolution was proposed at the 2011 ACM (by Kingston & Ribble Canoe Clubs), requiring events to be cardless from 2013, giving a year to work out how to do it

However this was effectively blocked when the Executive put in a motion, which was passed, saying that any club wishing to run cardlessly could do so

[alldaypaddler]

So is there actually anyone who knows how to set up the necessary systems who can help clubs who want to run cardless entry and/or online payments?

[djberriman]

There are plenty of people in the sport who could implement online payments, card less entries and card less results, online databases etc unfortunately as John says this was effectively blocked at the A.C.M.

I for one as a volunteer who could assist in such development am not prepared to invest my free time in something which the ACM did not support.

I had hoped to pilot it this year at some events but this will not be possible as it would require some features adding to the results system which will now not be developed, presumably for the same reason.

I am however still hoping to develop a database for results over the coming season.

To help with the database pilot I would ask that all organisers ensure they do not allocate existing bib numbers to new/promoted paddlers when they give them temporary bib numbers. Please use something obvious 901,902 etc. I did try to get a clarification to the rule book regarding this but I was told it required an ACM motion.

[djberriman]

PayPal is free when you use your bank account or PayPal balance.
If you use your credit or debit card, there is a fee of 3.4% of the transaction amount plus 20p.

When 'sending' you need to click on the personal tab rather than the purchase tab, you can then select gift, household espense, personal payment owed or other.

I've not tried it but from what I understand it simply means your payment does not come with the usual purchase/refund guarantees which of course are not needed.

This in effect means there are no chages to either party unless the sender decides to pay by card.

[TobyLerone]

So is there actually anyone who knows how to set up the necessary systems who can help clubs who want to run cardless entry and/or online payments?

Yes there are (I for example work in this industry). However I believe there is already a team looking into this as I did volunteer.

The big stumbling block is the money needs to go to a clubs specific bank account (not just one single account). This becomes difficult when taking payments on a central website like here, both for security and technical reasons.

It's very easy to setup online payments to a single account, PayPal for example even offers the code you could place on a specific clubs site (as Nene do). But as above this needs to be central and as many clubs don't have the techincal nohow this could not be feasible for a roleout.

Therefore the money would probably have to go to a central virtual account and be automatically transferred to each club (a gateway), or alternatively as Cambell mentions look at using a third party system. Most of these third party systems offer APIs which would allow the central site to communicate to these systems.

It's worth noting this is a complex area of e-commerce development as it requires multiple gateways, and would probably require money to put this into place, as it's not going to be out of the box so to speak. An example (after a brief look) could be something like : http://www.opengateway.net/overview

I won't blabber on with technical speak, but do get in touch if I can be of any help.

Cheers
Matt

[MikeR]

So is there actually anyone who knows how to set up the necessary systems who can help clubs who want to run cardless entry and/or online payments?

Yes there are (I for example work in this industry). However I believe there is already a team looking into this as I did volunteer.

The big stumbling block is the money needs to go to a clubs specific bank account (not just one single account). This becomes difficult when taking payments on a central website like here, both for security and technical reasons.

Would it not be able to run this as a normal e-commerce website, with money paid into a single bank account, and then have the usual two people countersign cheques from that bank account to go to the individual clubs after events?

I know this is probably more effort to do this manually rather than automatically, but it negates cost/some security issues, and the time/money that it would require to set the system up in the first place.

[TobyLerone]

Would it not be able to run this as a normal e-commerce website, with money paid into a single bank account, and then have the usual two people countersign cheques from that bank account to go to the individual clubs after events?

I know this is probably more effort to do this manually rather than automatically, but it negates cost/some security issues, and the time/money that it would require to set the system up in the first place.

Yep that would work, but this would create the same or more hassle than the current system.

Effectively a nominated person (due to online accounts limited to users), would have to go in on a frequent basis and send money from the central account to each club via a bank transfer. It's feasible and very easy to implement on the other hand, and most banks such as HSBC offer this via Merchant Services.

Matt

[djberriman]

If we were to accept online payment for our event then I'd simply set up a paypal account and accept payments, after the event I would submit the money to the club just like we do cash and cheques. There would be a perfectly good audit trail for all monies received. I don't really see what the issue is. As long as people send it via paypal as a personal payment there are no charges. If they choose to use a debit card or credit card when making the payment they would of course be charged but that is their choice.

Problem with any central system is that it needs administering and that probably means a paid position when you take into account the amount of work it would take each week.

Whilst we still need entry cards I'd guess this is pretty much a non starter anyway.