Rolling Rankings

[Nick Penfold]

Returning to the point of this thread, which wasn't spelling: trial rolling Prem rankings now published. Thanks to BtheB for much of the work.

[djberriman]

"One hazard of having unofficial results is incorrect names. My clubmate Andrew Lyall has had his name spelt wrong ever since the Tryweryn results. So incorrect on the P/1 Veteran Ranking thread and now on Duncan's database also."

Thanks for point out it is a data loading issue which I will investigate, I load the bibs and then the system actually corrects the results from the race organisers with the name from the ranking database for some reason it has not done it in this case. If you check out some results you will see incorrect names crossed out with the original ranking list name.

Being a database it can be fixed in a few seconds if the issue is raised.

As Nick says people just need to ask him if it's an issue and he will correct his stuff or better still correct the spelling at the event before the end of the event (but then everyones probably very busy).

[John Sturgess]

The present ranking system has a bigger flaw which would not be solved by rolling rankings - Prem paddlers (indeed all paddlers) are only compared against other Prem paddlers (or the paddlers in their division) - not against all paddlers. Some Prem paddlers have not had to measure themselves against Div 1 paddlers for 10 years or more!

The French use a rolling ranking system - but all paddlers get a ranking against all other paddlers (and unless they get a derogation, which international paddlers do, any paddler who has done fewer than 3 races in the past 12 months is ranked behind any paddler who has).

However their rankings are up to date because twice a year, in May and July, I think (the first classification came out on 14th/15th May) the top x paddlers in each class become N1, the next x paddlers become N2, etc. This system then decides which paddlers paddle in the year's N1 Championships, N2 Championships, N3 Championships.

In other words, Prem paddlers have to prove each year that they are better than all bar, say, 60 paddlers overall, not just a given proportion of Prem paddlers

A start might be to make all Prem and Div 1 races up to the end of August Prem/1 Qualifiers for a 3 or 4 race Prem Championship series in September/October; the rest to race in a 3 or 4 race Div 1 Championship series.(we would need the same derogation system for International paddlers).

That way anyone in Prem would have had to prove themselves good enough during that season.

[Dee]

Do the French have chatter boards?
Do they also have periodic threads about ranking and points?
I suspect there is no such thing as a perfect system (though that doesn't mean we shouldn't try)

[boatmum]

I am getting a bit confussed here with the compare all paddlers against each other rather than within a division. I thought the whole point of the divisions was that paddlers paddled on water / courses that had greater or lesser degrees of difficulty depending on what division it is. Why would a paddler who has pitched themselves against other Prem paddlers on courses designed for Prem level difficulty want to pitch themselves against a Div 1 paddler? If the Div 1 paddler is good enough they'll get into prem. Maybe this is too simple and I'm missing something?

Isit really necessary to make what is arguably a complicated system any more complicated?

[Nick Penfold]

Prem paddlers (indeed all paddlers) are only compared against other Prem paddlers (or the paddlers in their division) - not against all paddlers. Some Prem paddlers have not had to measure themselves against Div 1 paddlers for 10 years or more!

But there are a number of races where the best of Div 1 races against Prem - the British Open and the Pan Celtics - and the overlap is usually not great: Div 1s newly promoted to Prem don't usually thrash half the field: and we haven't yet seen a Div 1 paddle up at a Prem to much effect.
It's true that Prems don't have to directly defend their Prem ranking against other paddlers, but I don't think John's suggestion would make a lot of difference.

[Jaytee]

I've had a look at the rolling rankings - thanks for the work involved ( Nick Penfold, Bob the Builder & anyone else).
I think they do provide a better view of overall standings and are worth sticking with provided there's not a lot of extra effort involved.

I'd be against any suggestion of allocating points for anything other than achievement at ranked races (e.g. mid season promotees). Those who join the division will rise up as they take part in more races, according to their scores; which I see as right & proper.

Also looked at the ranking database. Appreciate its experimental; but it's clear/easy, and so quick! I hope this is the start of a simplified way forward. (Thanks djberriman et al)

The original post suggested for Premier Division. There's been no mention of Divs 1-3. Its my view that these should remain as they are, focussing on in-season performance. Not only are there many more races, but there are a number of paddlers promoted through more than 1 division in a season.

[djberriman]

Once a rolling ranking system is agreed it would be very easy to implement in the database I am testing as results from previous years will be stored and a paddler will be able to track their progress through divisions. So its just a pretty simple addition to track the last 'n' results even where that goes over a season. It could run alongside the current method.

For those of you interested I've just updated the test database system so that you can search by your first name (please bear in mind its very basic as it is experimental), that then gives you all your bibs that the system has managed to find and from there you can drill to each bib, results etc.

If your name is spelt wrong you may find you bibs are not linked and that you appear twice in the alphabetic listing. If your name is the same as someone else there will only be one entry. Both issues can easily be fixed.

Enjoy!

[Nick Penfold]

I think that if we attempted to do rolling rankings for Divisions 1-3 it would be hard to know what they meant. We couldn't sensibly give last year's points to demoted paddlers, or back scores even for the current year to promoted paddlers, so a lot of rankings wouldn't reflect the paddlers' ability. Neither do rolling rankings in Prem give a meaningful result for promotees with less than five races to count, but I don't think that can be sensibly managed either.

[boatmum]

Quick question ...

Where can you get the OFFICIAL rankings from ?

Many thanks

[MikeR]

Where can you get the OFFICIAL rankings from ?

I think the only official rankings are those compiled at the end of the year I'm afraid!

[oldschool]

There must be official ranking lists otherwise how do in season promotions work?

When you apply for promotion surely the ranking compiler consults the lists and says yay or nay?

[boatmum]

does anyone know?

I think it is important that while the rolling ranking lists may satisfy some although personally I'm not sure why because as Nick points out it's pretty useless for the bottom half of prem..

Lists for in-season rankings are needed. Why? - sponsorship, squad inclusion (other than GB), training camp priorities (not GB) and so on. Yes we can all do the math but bodies external to slalom like to see some kind of in-season authoritative list.

So somewhere, I suggest, there needs to be an official list and it does need to be accessible!

Knowing where the BCU slalom committee keeps this - as it must exist (unless Nick's unofficial lists have been used as the official lists too!) would be useful. If not available on a webiste somewhere, knowing who to contact would be good

Ta

[John Sturgess]

Sorry, people, but it is much worse than that

Not only are there no official ranking lists until the end of the season, there are no official results for an individual event either - and whereas the official ranking list is published at the end of the season, official results for a particular event only ever exist (again at the end of the season) on the ranking list compiler's computer. Until that time, ranking list compilers can - and do - 'correct' results - and a change to one paddler's score of course alters the points scored by every other paddler in that class - and they never find out - even Prem and Div 1 paddlers can only get a hint from Nick's unofficial ranking list; for the lower Divisions they can only see 'best/next best/etc: not which event it was scored at.

So you ask how can we have in-season promotion. Simple answer I suppose - we sort of pretend that the results are official, and usually this is tolerated - but I believe there was a case in which a Div 3 paddler reckoned he was promoted at West Tanfield - got his bib and paddled two Div 2 races - and was told at the end of the season he was still in Div 3 ...

A resolution was put to the 2011 ACM to make results official when so signed off by the Chairman of the Jury at the end of the event. Appeals would be possible thereafter, but would only affect the points of the appellant, not anyone else's. So Nick's tables could also be delared official subject to appeal.

I piloted this at several events last year, including turning up with a print-out of Nick's lists, so that I could tell paddlers at a Div 2/3 Saturday event what Division they should paddle in the next day. It worked, and didn't take that much work, given that there are no protests at my events ...

However the ACM threw it out by a margin of c. 2:1, same as it blocked cardless events. I suggest you ask your club reps which way they voted?

[boatmum]

It might be helpful if someone on the BCU Slalom Committee could comment please.

I personally dont feel that any more work or "responsibility" should be put on the "unofficial" canoe slalom site.!

the canoe salom site quite correctly and clearly states that the results it publishes are unofficial. So by definition there shoud be an official list?

I would never have queried this but for the introduction of the rolling rankings, which I personally struggle to see the relevance of but I am just one opion out if many.

What concerns me is there is no official in-season ranking list. Given there are agreed in-season promotions I would suggest there must be an official ranking list available from the BCU Slalom Committee to enable paddlers to be confident in their points and actual in-season ranking position - especially pertinent for those needing to demonstrate performance to external bodies.

I would not have thought this to be a difficult task given the raw data is already available.