Controversial Pre selection
Controversial Pre selection
Does anyone else think that the pre selection of K1M and C1M into the 2013 team is a bit controversial?
Re: Controversial Pre selection
If its done within the current selection policy and all the criteria have been adhered too then that is OK. If you disagree, get the policy changed.
The problem with pre selection is that I think the paddlers miss out on probably the best training sessions they will get for the forthcoming season. Racing selection for any paddlers is a very high pressure event no matter who you are. I feel paddlers that come through that process and make it to the team have had a experience that will be invaluable for the coming international season. If they are given the option to avoid this they will not get the benefit of this invaluable experience.
As they say,
The problem with pre selection is that I think the paddlers miss out on probably the best training sessions they will get for the forthcoming season. Racing selection for any paddlers is a very high pressure event no matter who you are. I feel paddlers that come through that process and make it to the team have had a experience that will be invaluable for the coming international season. If they are given the option to avoid this they will not get the benefit of this invaluable experience.
As they say,
If you can not stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
Re: Controversial Pre selection
The policy said - that medalists would get pre selected - don't have a problem with that and it was stated policy - so if you medal in C2 you are pre-selected for c2 - fine - but then to get pre selected in your individual discipline in which you did not medal - I'm not so sure.
Also what about the other team member who like the other two didn't medal in their individual class - should they get pre selected too - maybe - I'm just thinking it should maybe be one or the other?
Just keen to hear other views as I'm not sure - it feels not right but that's not to say there aren't good reasons for it. The argument put forward in the announcement doesn't really stack up but ...
Also what about the other team member who like the other two didn't medal in their individual class - should they get pre selected too - maybe - I'm just thinking it should maybe be one or the other?
Just keen to hear other views as I'm not sure - it feels not right but that's not to say there aren't good reasons for it. The argument put forward in the announcement doesn't really stack up but ...
Re: Controversial Pre selection
Personally I'm very keen on pre-selection.
As an athlete you train up for certain races over the winter etc, aiming to peak at certain times, your training winds up toward this, & you aim to be well rested & at your sharpest for the race.
However, having selection in there gives you and extra time where you're having to peak, extra time spent resting (not training!), & an interruption to your training for the important (World Championship) races etc.
As an athlete you train up for certain races over the winter etc, aiming to peak at certain times, your training winds up toward this, & you aim to be well rested & at your sharpest for the race.
However, having selection in there gives you and extra time where you're having to peak, extra time spent resting (not training!), & an interruption to your training for the important (World Championship) races etc.
Re: Controversial Pre selection
I can see where boat mum is coming from. Possibly there are five boats in the UK who might medal in major championships - three are preselected. One of the preselections has done very little internationally in the individual discipline.
Should a medal in one event gain you preselection for another event? Probably not - let alone the argument that has been presented for giving preselection which is a very poor one. What about all the K1M/C1M paddlers who could also now claim to be disadvantaged? How can someone justify this to those paddlers?
At the hub of the argument is the point that Nick Penfold made in his editorial - the number of boats competing in an Olympic event. No doubt I am being controversial but we did win our medals in a field where 50% of the competitors won a medal! Was that the easiest race of the season? Were the European championships/World Cups a fairer benchmark? Yes those were the rules and we all knew them but that doesn't mean this decision is right.
Should a medal in one event gain you preselection for another event? Probably not - let alone the argument that has been presented for giving preselection which is a very poor one. What about all the K1M/C1M paddlers who could also now claim to be disadvantaged? How can someone justify this to those paddlers?
At the hub of the argument is the point that Nick Penfold made in his editorial - the number of boats competing in an Olympic event. No doubt I am being controversial but we did win our medals in a field where 50% of the competitors won a medal! Was that the easiest race of the season? Were the European championships/World Cups a fairer benchmark? Yes those were the rules and we all knew them but that doesn't mean this decision is right.
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Canadian Paddler
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Re: Controversial Pre selection
Just a clarification, 50% did NOT win medals in C2. There were 13 boats in the heats, 10 in the semi-finals, and six in the final. 3/13 = 23%. 12 nations represented in the heats
OK a smaller field:
* The Australian Open had 22 boats in the heats, from just 9 countries
* World Cup final 2012 - 23 boats from just 11 nations.
* 2011 World Championships - 43 boats from 18 Nations.
BUT to come first and second, they had to beat the best of every other nation.
That is not to say that more athlete places would be MUCH better, especially if we are aiming for gender equality, I really do not want to lose C2, to bring in C1W. But that is IOC/Rio decision, and I believe the ICF are on the case
OK a smaller field:
* The Australian Open had 22 boats in the heats, from just 9 countries
* World Cup final 2012 - 23 boats from just 11 nations.
* 2011 World Championships - 43 boats from 18 Nations.
BUT to come first and second, they had to beat the best of every other nation.
That is not to say that more athlete places would be MUCH better, especially if we are aiming for gender equality, I really do not want to lose C2, to bring in C1W. But that is IOC/Rio decision, and I believe the ICF are on the case
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Re: Controversial Pre selection
Sorry - I did say race not event - there were only 6 boats in the final - but that is here nor there the debate is over the preselection and that is what seems to be causing a lot of issues.
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Phil Stevo
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- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:14 pm
Re: Controversial Pre selection
Pre-selection
I would like to kick this post off by thanking Etienne, Tim, Dave, Rich and all their coaches and support staff for giving us the greatest day in our sport on 2nd August 2012. It was a privilege to be there and it was like a wish come true for canoe slalom in Britain.
However, there is a Buddhist saying that says ‘be careful what you wish for’ as that day’s brilliant success has brought on the spectre of pre-selection that is always controversial to say the least.
I have spent most of the last few days talking to people that are very unhappy about the pre-selection of the boats outside the C2s that medalled. A number of these athletes, parents and coaches are worried about voicing their concerns openly for a couple reasons. Firstly they don’t want to seem churlish towards Rich and Dave after their fantastic success and secondly they feel it may be dangerous to put their heads above the parapet as they don’t want it to hamper support from GB Canoeing at some point in the future.
The reasons for the disquiet from me and the others I’ve talked to on this issue are summarised below:
- The pre-selection of Olympic medallists in the classes that they didn't medal in when doubling up will disadvantage other paddlers going for 2013 men's senior selection as 44% of the available men's selection places are already taken by pre-selected boats.
- The statement in the 2012 selection policy 'medallists from the 2012 Olympic games must formally request pre selection through international panel for inclusion into 2013 GB senior team' does not explicitly relate to classes outside where the athletes have gained Olympic medals. So this could have been applied even if the athletes concerned had not been selected in another class in 2012.
- I think it is fair to say when this statement was included in the 2012 selection procedure everyone, including the international panel at the time, thought of this referring only to the pre-selection of boats in the classes they medalled in. If not, there would have been many more objections raised to this in the consultation period.
- The decision to include pre-selection for K1 and C1 were taken well after the Olympic event.
- The 2013 draft selection procedure states that in 2013 that there should be 'a change of approach at the start of the Olympic cycle to allow more boats more opportunities to gain experience at the highest level'. How can this be held true when 44% of the men's GB places are already taken with pre-selection?
The 2013 selection policy was released for a 14 day formal consultation period ending on 14th November on http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk and the international panel statement regarding the pre-selection was released on 6th November on http://www.gbcanoeing.org.uk Therefore objections around pre-selection for 2013 should not be timed out by the consultation deadline of 14th November.
The reasons given for the pre-selection decision are:
The purpose of the pre-selection clause in the 2012 policy was to enable Olympic
Medallists to act as sporting ambassadors to capitalise on the 2012 London Olympic
Games for the benefit of our sport. The rationale for pre-selection is to enable full
preparation for the 2013 International season without being disadvantaged by a later
start to winter training. It is for this reason that David Florence and Richard Hounslow
have been pre-selected in single boats as without pre-selection in both their classes they would be disadvantaged.
So in future would it not be better to put in place a publicity agent and extra administrative support to help Olympic medallists with this work rather resort to pre-selection?
This issue has also raised concerns about the current make-up of the International Panel
The voting members of the panel are made up of 3 GB Canoeing staff (who with the best will in the world will naturally prefer the selection of athletes they are already working with on the GB funded schemes), Anne Hounslow (who is there to represent the slalom executive committee on behalf of the whole of slalom canoeing) and Martyn Setchell as a non-voting observer.
Anne's Hounslow's son Richard is a beneficiary of the pre-selection statement so when this came up for discussion in the international panel meeting Anne, as I understand it, declared a conflict of interest and left the room, that is only right and proper. However this means the voting representative of canoe slalom as a whole is then not in the meeting to represent other athletes that are disadvantaged by the decision.
Therefore should Anne not delegate this responsibility to another member of the Slalom Executive so that there is full voting representation whilst she has this conflict of interest?
I do hope these issues can be resolved quickly as it will be such a shame if there to be a lingering disquiet following such a fantastic summer.
Phil Stephenson
I would like to kick this post off by thanking Etienne, Tim, Dave, Rich and all their coaches and support staff for giving us the greatest day in our sport on 2nd August 2012. It was a privilege to be there and it was like a wish come true for canoe slalom in Britain.
However, there is a Buddhist saying that says ‘be careful what you wish for’ as that day’s brilliant success has brought on the spectre of pre-selection that is always controversial to say the least.
I have spent most of the last few days talking to people that are very unhappy about the pre-selection of the boats outside the C2s that medalled. A number of these athletes, parents and coaches are worried about voicing their concerns openly for a couple reasons. Firstly they don’t want to seem churlish towards Rich and Dave after their fantastic success and secondly they feel it may be dangerous to put their heads above the parapet as they don’t want it to hamper support from GB Canoeing at some point in the future.
The reasons for the disquiet from me and the others I’ve talked to on this issue are summarised below:
- The pre-selection of Olympic medallists in the classes that they didn't medal in when doubling up will disadvantage other paddlers going for 2013 men's senior selection as 44% of the available men's selection places are already taken by pre-selected boats.
- The statement in the 2012 selection policy 'medallists from the 2012 Olympic games must formally request pre selection through international panel for inclusion into 2013 GB senior team' does not explicitly relate to classes outside where the athletes have gained Olympic medals. So this could have been applied even if the athletes concerned had not been selected in another class in 2012.
- I think it is fair to say when this statement was included in the 2012 selection procedure everyone, including the international panel at the time, thought of this referring only to the pre-selection of boats in the classes they medalled in. If not, there would have been many more objections raised to this in the consultation period.
- The decision to include pre-selection for K1 and C1 were taken well after the Olympic event.
- The 2013 draft selection procedure states that in 2013 that there should be 'a change of approach at the start of the Olympic cycle to allow more boats more opportunities to gain experience at the highest level'. How can this be held true when 44% of the men's GB places are already taken with pre-selection?
The 2013 selection policy was released for a 14 day formal consultation period ending on 14th November on http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk and the international panel statement regarding the pre-selection was released on 6th November on http://www.gbcanoeing.org.uk Therefore objections around pre-selection for 2013 should not be timed out by the consultation deadline of 14th November.
The reasons given for the pre-selection decision are:
The purpose of the pre-selection clause in the 2012 policy was to enable Olympic
Medallists to act as sporting ambassadors to capitalise on the 2012 London Olympic
Games for the benefit of our sport. The rationale for pre-selection is to enable full
preparation for the 2013 International season without being disadvantaged by a later
start to winter training. It is for this reason that David Florence and Richard Hounslow
have been pre-selected in single boats as without pre-selection in both their classes they would be disadvantaged.
So in future would it not be better to put in place a publicity agent and extra administrative support to help Olympic medallists with this work rather resort to pre-selection?
This issue has also raised concerns about the current make-up of the International Panel
The voting members of the panel are made up of 3 GB Canoeing staff (who with the best will in the world will naturally prefer the selection of athletes they are already working with on the GB funded schemes), Anne Hounslow (who is there to represent the slalom executive committee on behalf of the whole of slalom canoeing) and Martyn Setchell as a non-voting observer.
Anne's Hounslow's son Richard is a beneficiary of the pre-selection statement so when this came up for discussion in the international panel meeting Anne, as I understand it, declared a conflict of interest and left the room, that is only right and proper. However this means the voting representative of canoe slalom as a whole is then not in the meeting to represent other athletes that are disadvantaged by the decision.
Therefore should Anne not delegate this responsibility to another member of the Slalom Executive so that there is full voting representation whilst she has this conflict of interest?
I do hope these issues can be resolved quickly as it will be such a shame if there to be a lingering disquiet following such a fantastic summer.
Phil Stephenson
Re: Controversial Pre selection
It's a ridiculous decision. In addition to what Phil Stevo has said above, there has been no substantial change in the wording of the pre-selection rule between 2010 and 2012.
The only stated aim of the selection policy is "to select the best possible athletes to represent GB Canoeing at International Championships (...)".
It follows that World/Olympic medallists are the best athletes in the world and therefore also the best possible athletes to represent GB Canoeing, although this is obviously only true in the category they won the medal in.
The panel should not purport that there are any other aims or rationale behind the policy. If anything, given the claim that the medallists have missed a significant block of training this winter, they may no longer be the best athletes in Britain and possibly should not even be pre-selected in C2.
If this goes ahead, in future they could even pre-select Ed McKeever or someone like Rebecca Romero. In fact, pre-selecting Rebecca Romero would bring the sport a lot of publicity...
Any medallist from the 2010 World championships can be considered for pre-selection to the 2011 senior GB team.
David and Richard won a C2 world medal in 2010 and did not get pre-selected in their other categories, so the selection panel shouldn't claim the rules are different now.Medallists from 2012 Olympic Games must formally request pre selection through International Panel for inclusion into 2013 GB Senior Team.
The only stated aim of the selection policy is "to select the best possible athletes to represent GB Canoeing at International Championships (...)".
It follows that World/Olympic medallists are the best athletes in the world and therefore also the best possible athletes to represent GB Canoeing, although this is obviously only true in the category they won the medal in.
The panel should not purport that there are any other aims or rationale behind the policy. If anything, given the claim that the medallists have missed a significant block of training this winter, they may no longer be the best athletes in Britain and possibly should not even be pre-selected in C2.
If this goes ahead, in future they could even pre-select Ed McKeever or someone like Rebecca Romero. In fact, pre-selecting Rebecca Romero would bring the sport a lot of publicity...
Re: Controversial Pre selection
I sent a letter to the International Panel expressing my disappointment at the the decision. I thought I'd share it here...
http://www.campbellwalsh.com/ReplyToInt ... lWalsh.pdf
http://www.campbellwalsh.com/ReplyToInt ... lWalsh.pdf
Re: Controversial Pre selection
It stinks, and the decision should be reversed ASAP.
Re: Controversial Pre selection
This decision is very bad for the sport. Campbell said in his letter...
If anybody wants to meet and discuss how to pursue this, email me. jjayes@hotmail.com
I am afraid I totally lost faith in anything other than very strict performance related selection a very long time ago, especially back in 2000 for the Sydney Olympics when the powers that be, including the new performance director tried to push through pre selection for a single Men K1 place, even when it was not even in the selection policy. They failed due to the threat of legal action, this may well be the case this time around too. This case too needs to be put to the sport arbitration people to contest against the international panel and sort out for the good of the sport as a whole. It would be a shame if it has to come to this and would put the sports management yet again in a very bad light, but sometime people need to stand up and be counted for what they believe in.It will most likely contribute to a loss of faith in both GB Canoeing management and the International Panel. The effects of this could potentially be felt for a long time.
If anybody wants to meet and discuss how to pursue this, email me. jjayes@hotmail.com
Re: Controversial Pre selection
I completely agree with the letter that Campbell has written to the panel.
In light of the robust feedback that various people are making to the International Panel, for the sake of the sport the panel needs to revisit this agreement. It must be uncomfortable for all involved including the 2 paddlers preselected.
In light of the robust feedback that various people are making to the International Panel, for the sake of the sport the panel needs to revisit this agreement. It must be uncomfortable for all involved including the 2 paddlers preselected.
Last edited by CeeBee on Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Controversial Pre selection
Well said Campbell!