Competing in an Officials event

[BaldockBabe]

I have to concur with Mrs C P Paddler.

If you are competing in the ranking race you are subject to rule B6.1 whereby you must be willing and able to do judging if the organiser requires it. I certianally made use of this rule at the HPP P/1 event this year and I understand other organisers have done the same.

Why should the paddlers also get a officials run for doing something that they are obliged to do anyway?

However, I would also query whether this rule is needed at Div 3/4 events where higher ranked paddlers will often jump into C2 to get another paddler to give the sport a try. The importance of introducing new people to the sport is greater than the need for this rule at that level.

[BaldockBabe]

P.S. as someone who is regularly a non-paddling volunteer and is married to someone is is ALWAYS a non-paddling volunteer I am pretty sure neither of us do this so that we can get to the top of the officials ranking list. I am not sure whether any of the non-paddling volunteers do (trust me, there is far to much work involved to be worried about things like that). Personally I would suggest getting rid of the bit about the non-paddling volunteers.

[Sven]

Had actually never heard of the non paddling volunteer ranking list - LOL

[slink]

It's not a non paddling volunteer ranking list; any non paddling volunteer who fills in an entry card receives points, and they are then ranked in the officials ranking list, so you may have paddlers or non paddlers in this list:

B6.6 Non-paddling Officials will receive 25 points providing that they have completed an Entry Card with name, address and National Association Number and current division/bib number where applicable.

As the maximum points is 50 for the officials event, reducing by 1 per position (i.e. 2nd place gets 49), a non ranking official would have to have done 26 events to be 1st at the moment, or 16 events to be in 3rd place, so it's unlikely a non paddling volunteer will ever make the top of the ranking list!

[Veronica]

If it requires so much effort from a non-paddling official to gain points in the official ranking list then perhaps the number of points allocated to them at each event needs to be altered. Also a non-paddling official is probably going to be unranked and therefore not eligible for a prize as they are only awarded for Prem/Div1 and Div 2/3. Should there be a category for non-paddling official?

I don't think that competitors should be awarded points for judging at an event.

Is being a div 4 competitor and an official at a div 3/4 event is ok as a div 4 is not a ranking event? Why is there no Judging Competition for Div4 competitors?

As an entry card should be completed for Judges runs with National Association Number can the ranking database be used to search for the same competitor using this data?

[djberriman]

"I don't think that competitors should be awarded points for judging at an event." - Why not its a seperate competion.

"Why is there no Judging Competition for Div4 competitors?" - presumably because most div 4's don't know all the rules and can't judge. Most youngsters are introduced to judging as they learn the rules and go up the divisions and sit with an experienced judge a few times before judging. Most would probably know about double passage, half head, displacement and a whole host of subtle differences as to whether a gate has been done correctly, is a 2 or a 50 which is why there is a judging exam.

"As an entry card should be completed for Judges runs with National Association Number can the ranking database be used to search for the same competitor using this data?"

It may suprise most people to learn that data does not flow easily between the various people who have it and until 6 months ago there was no ranking 'database'. The data in it is loaded from the start of year ranking lists and the results sheets which you will see do not contain the national number or some of the other data that is on the entry card, the only unique and identifiable data is the bib as the name is often entered incorrectly. In addition I believe in some home nations the national number is not unique to a paddler and the same number may be used for all members of a family.

It would be great if the year of birth and national number were entered into results but currently they are not and there is no requirement to do so.

And of course non paddling judges/officals are not known to the ranking database.

This is the first year of the ranking database and I hope it will improve over time as we provide better ways of communicating information. I can't see it holding anything other than ranked paddlers for the forseeable future as there would be so little gain for a lot of (free) effort and there are more important things to focus on first.

[Veronica]

Why is there no Judging Competition for Div4 competitors?" - presumably because most div 4's don't know all the rules and can't judge. Most youngsters are introduced to judging as they learn the rules and go up the divisions and sit with an experienced judge a few times before judging.

As the gate judging exam is available to anyone irrespective of age/paddling ability why should Div4s not have a seperate competition? Div4 is not only for children! When I asked the question I was thinking more about the large percentage of volunteers at events who are parents and have taken the time and effort to pass judging exams and spend many hours in control or the river bank.

[djberriman]

There is however no reason why div 4 should not have an officials competition, personally I beleive the whole officials ranking list is a complete and utter waste of time and valulable effort on all parties involved.

If the end result is to award a trophy to the official (not judge) that does the most work towards the sport then the current system completely fails to recognise those volunteers who do most.

Perhaps I am alone but it has never entered my mind when building a course, setting up an event, running an event, judging or even doing things like writing the ranking database and helping to maintain it that an end goal is to see how many points I get in an officials ranking with the hope of being awarded a trophy.

Personally I think the whole thing should be scrapped and we all spend our vaulable time concentrating on delevering great events to inspire paddlers. Perhaps I'll see if we can put forward a motion to scrap it but there are probably bigger things to try and change and one can only put forward so many motions!

Similarly if you think a div 4 officials competion is important the way to resolve it is to raise it as a motion at the ACM.

[djberriman]

PS. From what I can see the officials event is open to any official in any division indeed Keith Park is listed as a div 4 as are a number of others.

[Canadian Paddler]

B6.3 For the purpose of this competition entrants shall be divided Into three divisions:
A) Premier and Division 1
B) Division 2 and 3
C) Division 4

...

B6.7 At the end of the season the points will be totalled for each Competitor in accordance with their current division and prizes awarded as appropriate

The rules do not say separate competitions for the divisional grouping, just that when allocating points your current division is taken into account. At the end of the year, the winner is the person with the most points, regardless of division. There is a nice cut glass prize for first place - regardless of division. Additional prizes have been given in previous years, when there was sponsorship, but not for the past few years.

[Mrs C P Paddler]

Personally I think the whole thing should be scrapped and we all spend our vaulable time concentrating on delevering great events to inspire paddlers. Perhaps I'll see if we can put forward a motion to scrap it but there are probably bigger things to try and change and one can only put forward so many motions!

I know you are not a fan of this but some paddlers are and before you go trying to scrap it, why can't we see if we can't fix it first and make it more relevant? The problem, as has been confirmed by this thread, is that people do not understand the competition because they have not read the rules or are going on hearsay. Surely we should be promoting the competition BEFORE we move to scrap it. I have several ideas for motions regarding the competition that I want to put forward in the hope it can become clearer and easier to manage. I would welcome ideas on how to improve it. I did ask that question a while ago but wasn't surprised by the almost deafening silence. Just goes to prove my point!

As we move towards a card less entry system we have to find ways to get information, such as details of non-paddling judges at an event, to me as the ranking complier, WITHOUT incurring a great deal more paperwork for organisers, should they wish to be included in the ranking list. The fact that I don't get any info regarding non-paddling judges tells me that they probably don't know they are entitled to gather points. And yes I agree 25 points is not enough and needs to be reviewed ( one of my ideas. )

[djberriman]

some ideas then.

a) We should value all volunteers who make an event happen not just judges
b) The slalom return should include a list of volunteers and approximate number of hours worked
c) points to non paddling officials should be awarded based on hours committed (not necessairily pro-rata)

This would mean we could not only have a more accurate officials ranking list which reflect the commitment everyone puts in but also that it would be possible to identify the total volunteer hours it takes to run an event and really value their contribution.

[Mrs C P Paddler]

Ok so;

a) How would you value volunteers? This question has been going around for ages. Surely we already do that as without them a slalom would not run and they know that.

b) How does an organiser work out how many hours a volunteer has worked at a slalom and who exactly are you including in this? Everyone involved? Organisers would have to have eyes in the back of their heads to note every single hour.

c) As 50 points is the top amount currently awarded, how many hours would you have to commit to in order to get 50 points? When we have our local slalom I do the canteen. Not only do I work all weekend but I spend a day making cakes for prizes plus another half day shopping for the supplies. Would I count these hours? Its a lot of work on my part and I commit to doing it twice a year ( plus 2 winter one day slaloms). Personally I do it for the paddlers who compete and the club, not the glory. And there's the problem with this idea. Isn't that why most of the volunteers do it otherwise surely they would walk away?

I get where you are coming from but what worries me is this is MORE work for the Organisers and to record everyone involved could be a huge list and take a lot of time. If we can find an easy way to do this then I could see a way forward but there is a lot to iron out. I am very aware that organisers already have a lot to do and I really don't want to put more pressure on them.

[djberriman]

"a) How would you value volunteers? This question has been going around for ages. Surely we already do that as without them a slalom would not run and they know that. "

Which is my whole point about the officals rankings being pointless - excuse the pun!

"b) How does an organiser work out how many hours a volunteer has worked at a slalom and who exactly are you including in this? Everyone involved? Organisers would have to have eyes in the back of their heads to note every single hour. "

I agree but some sort of estimate, so for instance 3 hours for judging, 7 hours for course setup and tear down in my case.

"c) As 50 points is the top amount currently awarded, how many hours would you have to commit to in order to get 50 points? When we have our local slalom I do the canteen. Not only do I work all weekend but I spend a day making cakes for prizes plus another half day shopping for the supplies. Would I count these hours? Its a lot of work on my part and I commit to doing it twice a year ( plus 2 winter one day slaloms). Personally I do it for the paddlers who compete and the club, not the glory. And there's the problem with this idea. Isn't that why most of the volunteers do it otherwise surely they would walk away?"

Exactly my point, so what is the point of the officials ranking when it ignores those who put in the most and most of us including yourself don't do it for the glory/trophy?

"I get where you are coming from but what worries me is this is MORE work for the Organisers and to record everyone involved could be a huge list and take a lot of time. If we can find an easy way to do this then I could see a way forward but there is a lot to iron out. I am very aware that organisers already have a lot to do and I really don't want to put more pressure on them."

Again why I think it should be scrapped, it's more work and the focus should be on producing great events to inspire paddlers, the less extra work there is to do the better.

An ACM motion to scrap it would presumably get a concencous from clubs and therefore paddlers as to its worth. If the motion is denied then there is a clear interest in the officials rankings and we can work on how to improve it.

All of course my own opinion.

[BaldockBabe]

"

An ACM motion to scrap it would presumably get a concencous from clubs and therefore paddlers as to its worth. If the motion is denied then there is a clear interest in the officials rankings and we can work on how to improve it.

Or alternatively why not do what Mrs CP Paddler is trying to do and offer a way of improving it so that interest increases?

Are people not taking it a bit too seriously? I always figured that this was a bit of fun. Anyone assisting at an event has the right to put in an entry, many non-judges do because they are assisting elsewhere, so this is not limited to judges. These leave the non-paddling helpers. If they want to join in, paddle!!! Have a bit of fun... This in my mind is not a league of the people who have helped the most in each season (I recognise that there are many non-paddlers that put in 1000's of hours behind the scenes) but a ranking list of how well paddlers that have also been officials have done in those officials events. If that were not the case why do more points go to the paddler that wins the event when they may only do one hour of helping, whereas the paddler that comes last may do 2 hours of helping?