Is Div.1 K1 Men Too Large?

[CeeBee]

As people realise that there is competition for places and that demand exceeds supply, paddlers/parents will start entering races further ahead to ensure they get entries. This should mean that this will apply to most Div 1s this season.

Whereas for events where demand does not exceed supply e.g. standard prem races, people will continue to enter shortly before the cut off date.

It will favour those that are more organised and we will need to be careful how we allow for promotions from Div 2 to Div 1. If someone was promoted to Div 1 today, can they get an entry to a Div 1 race that is full?

[BaldockBabe]

There may be a good number of div 1 races to enter but there are races in May and June that young paddlers doing GCSE and A level exams won't enter.

It has always surprised me how little the timing has on the attendance rates. I ran the HPP May event for a number of years and it was always full. I suspect it is because everyone needs a break from work at some point and spending the weekend paddling is a good release.

[Neil H]

Just pondering the Shepperton entry and noted the relatively small entry in Div 2 K1W. i suppose this could be a knock on effect of the increase in Div K1M and entries coming in fast, regardless it is a shame to see such a low entry in that category as it isn't good for the future - I hope further events aren't so swamped that such occurs.

It is also a shame to see a low entry in C2 at the Shepperton race; fair play to Rob and his younger, shorter, brother Steve for getting an entry in

[davebrads]

Agree with Dave Bradshaw.

I think around 8 hours racing per day is about the limit i.e. approx 4 hrs per run including 30 minute for judges runs leaves 3 1/2 hrs for the ranking race which is 210 entries. You also have to factor in 210/2 minutes i.e. 1 hr 45 for practice runs at 30 second intervals. So, I think agreeing a limit is a good plan and is transparent to both organisers and paddlers.

Except my 8 hours includes practice at div 1s, so that then comes down to 192 entries.

[stringbean]

It is also a shame to see a low entry in C2 at the Shepperton race; fair play to Rob and his younger, shorter, brother Steve for getting an entry in

We put in a div 2 C2 entry but missed the cutoff by a couple of days

[Sven]

It might be that in order to allow for a representative number of paddlers from each class an opening date for an event as well as a closing date could be stipulated.

I would have thought getting entries weeks in advance was also a bit of a nightmare for organisers! What with people wanting to know if their entries were received etc So by creating a window then everyone knows where they are.

So maybe something like entries open 4 - 5 weeks before the event - nothing received before that date accepted then the closing date 2 weeks before the event as normal so there is a good period of time to get the entries in.

Alternatively maybe some form of on-line race booking facility - I know: cost, who will run it?, how are entry fees handled? etc etc It might be that all money is paid to the BCU slalom committee who then sends back the entry fee to the club/committee less the levies? However it would be a huge undertaking - I think the downhill cycle boys and indeed the skiers do something along those lines

Just thoughts

[Nick Penfold]

Although Div 1 is arguably a bit big, a race limit of say 200 wouldn’t be a problem if Div 1 wasn’t competing with other events for race places.

Last year we started with 300 boats in Div 1, including all the paddlers in C1W and C2 Prem/Div 1. The average attendance at Div 1 races was 140, so on average 47% of the Division attended each race. The number was rising, with promotions, as the year went on, but surprisingly not by that much. That picture - a little under 50% of the Division attending each race - is pretty typical for previous years too.

This year we start with 335 ranked in Div 1, including all the C2s in Prem/1. If say 50% of the Division wants to attend any race, 168 places are needed and a limit of 200 would accommodate a lot of paddle-uppers.

The problem is that so many Div 1s are combined with other races. Shepperton is combined with a Div 2, Tully with a Pan Celtic and Scottish Selection, the McConkey with the Prem semis and finals, Chapel Falls with a Pan Celtic, Pinkston with the Vet and J16 Championships and Llandysul with a Div 2.

Portable Points will at least take away the combined Div 1/2s, leaving Div 1s with clear priority entry, but the other combinations would still be a problem. One possibility I can see is to separate away the Pan Celtics. Maybe the Pan Celtics should be combined with Prem races like this year’s England leg, or there should be just one Pan Celtic race each year, hosted by the nations in turn but separate from other races?

[BaldockBabe]

Sven, any idea for the cycling and skiing what happens if an event is cancelled? Are participants refunded? I know for running events they try and put on an alternative date but regardless there are no refunds. In slalom we tend to refund so any online system would either need to allow for that or we accept that refunds will not be given.

Nick's suggestion is worth some thought provided we don't go to portable points.

[Sven]

not sure about skiers but fairly sure the downhill cycle guys get refunded if an event is cancelled and up to a week before the event if they pull out voluntarily (as it were).

[Dave Royle]

I must admit being an organiser is getting more and more time consuming, particularly since email is so available to everyone. I get emails telling me that an entry is going to arrive. Emails asking if a cheque is OK without a card. Emails saying they are sending cards but no cheque because they don't know if they will race. Emails asking if the entry has been received etc etc etc.

Send the cards and the cheque for the right money and the entry is extremely easy to process. Anything else and it is extra work marrying at least two bits of information up together = pain in the neck.

Q. When is an entry not an entry?
A. When there's no money.

[Telemark]

Worth noting that Shepperton is now full too (5 weeks ahead of event)

Blimey, looks like I had better get an entry in for the Shepperton September date, that will be my only entry possible this season (Div 2) !

[Dee]

Just pondering the Shepperton entry and noted the relatively small entry in Div 2 K1W. i suppose this could be a knock on effect of the increase in Div K1M and entries coming in fast, regardless it is a shame to see such a low entry in that category as it isn't good for the future - I hope further events aren't so swamped that such occurs

I'm sure this is partly due to div 2s just not being geared up to getting entries in so early but having said that Shepperton 1/2 has never been hugely popular with div2 K1Ws as it can be too scary!

[Dee]

Although Div 1 is arguably a bit big, a race limit of say 200 wouldn’t be a problem if Div 1 wasn’t competing with other events for race places.
...
Portable Points will at least take away the combined Div 1/2s, leaving Div 1s with clear priority entr

What isn't entirely clear is whether significant numbers of div 1s are missing out. Yes races are filling up much earlier but races have been full for the last few years. What's really changed is that paddlers have realised that by leaving it until the last minute they will have to pay late fees and may miss out altogether so they are getting those entries in early and I think this is a good thing.

The problem though is that the div2s are likely to be less geared up to early entries and will therefore be more likely to miss the boat with the knock on effect that they get less experience at the bigger races and possibly get discouraged from the sport altogether.

[Chris Baillie]

If my experience with Tully and Pinkston are to be believed many div 1 paddlers are missing out.

I have a waiting list of over 50 for the Tully Sunday race. Some have commented they are happy to accept the Saturday race only, because they have already missed out on Shepperton.

Some Pinkston entries have arrived with the comment that they were coming to Tully but realised they were too late so are applying for Pinkston in plenty of time!

Other comments include they do not know their work shift pattern for later in the year so will their money be refunded at a later date if they have to withdraw, will organiser's cash the cheques because they could risk financial embarrasment if all the organisers bank their cheques in the next couple of weeks.

Personally I bank cheques after the race and would refund but I know that is not always the case even within the Scottish races.

Chris

[cookie]

Nick Penfold said ... "One possibility I can see is to separate away the Pan Celtics. Maybe the Pan Celtics should be combined with Prem races like this year’s England leg, or there should be just one Pan Celtic race each year, hosted by the nations in turn but separate from other races?"

Totally agree with Nick Penfold. Pan Celtic and Scottish Champs have taken Div 1 places away at Tully. They should be separate weekends. We know from experience which Div 1's are popular - other championships should not be allowed to combine with those Div 1's.

Also agree with Dave Royle - "when is an entry not an entry? - when there is no money" - Has Tully complied with this? Have cheques been received on the acceptance dates posted on the start list? Or are these email dates? They should be full entry received dates ie card and cheque, when there is such controversy over entries.

I have run massive Div 1 events in the past on restricted water times (Tryweryn). No-one got turned away and we managed it. The difference is with all the double events requiring a practice run on the same day as the two competition runs which reduces how many competitors you can get down the course. Maybe it is time for a radical change ...