Looking at the increase in size of K1M Prem & K1M Div1 during 2014:
K1M started 2014 with 150ish bibs & finished with 219, 6 people were demoted so an increase of 64ish paddlers or 42% - wow!
K1M Prem started 2014 with 66 bibs & finished with 86, 8 people were demoted so increase of 12 paddlers - 18%.
The reason - perhaps due to number of Div2 races then it's more likely to get promoted into Div1, but less Div1 races means less likely to get into Prem.
There will always be a number of people who stop racing & the numbers will no doubt be skewed in other ways, but there appears to be a trend for Div1 to become a bottle neck and perhaps this trend could also be considered in views on race format/divisions ect going forward.
Race Entry
Re: Race Entry
Hi,
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying the current system is ridiculous, I find it ridiculous that the governing body haven't provided, or don't appear to be in the process of providing a system to automate what has to be a manual process at the moment. Regards cost, yes, won't be cheap but I am sure it could be done for around £3k + annual support fees. I would build one myself, however don't have a sized company suitable to support it.
I think StevePearson's stats tell the story, increase of 42% in Div 1, and that is just K1M. It would be interesting to know the figures for C1M, K1W, C1W and C2 - apart from perhams C2 I am sure participation has increased at a similar rate. The size of the field at a race can't get any larger and the number of races has decreased. There are a larger number of paddlers competing in both Kayak and Canoe disciplines. If Div 1's are also hosting selection programmes at the same event, that is also pressure on the number of entries. It's difficult to know for sure, but I expect people used to enter fewer races per year than many of the paddlers today, especially those coming through the various clubs and regional teams, this is also adding pressure to the start lists.
A survey would be easy to set up e.g. Survey Monkey, but getting the right questions is hard, and even harder to get people to answer. I know for the "Employee Pride" or whatever its called at work they only get about a 30% response rate - take the election voting rate too?? I personally would struggle to answer the questions proposed, for example I know we sent entries for Shepperton and HPP early in the year (February perhaps) and I know we didn't make it to the start or reserve list for Shepperton but made it low down on the reserve list for HPP early May, but too low to get a chance of a place. Still don't know if we are on the start list for HPP at the end of May, and we don't know about any of the races later in the year. I don't believe this is published until just before the race, although perhaps some people taking entries do email people back, but adds to their workload.
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying the current system is ridiculous, I find it ridiculous that the governing body haven't provided, or don't appear to be in the process of providing a system to automate what has to be a manual process at the moment. Regards cost, yes, won't be cheap but I am sure it could be done for around £3k + annual support fees. I would build one myself, however don't have a sized company suitable to support it.
I think StevePearson's stats tell the story, increase of 42% in Div 1, and that is just K1M. It would be interesting to know the figures for C1M, K1W, C1W and C2 - apart from perhams C2 I am sure participation has increased at a similar rate. The size of the field at a race can't get any larger and the number of races has decreased. There are a larger number of paddlers competing in both Kayak and Canoe disciplines. If Div 1's are also hosting selection programmes at the same event, that is also pressure on the number of entries. It's difficult to know for sure, but I expect people used to enter fewer races per year than many of the paddlers today, especially those coming through the various clubs and regional teams, this is also adding pressure to the start lists.
A survey would be easy to set up e.g. Survey Monkey, but getting the right questions is hard, and even harder to get people to answer. I know for the "Employee Pride" or whatever its called at work they only get about a 30% response rate - take the election voting rate too?? I personally would struggle to answer the questions proposed, for example I know we sent entries for Shepperton and HPP early in the year (February perhaps) and I know we didn't make it to the start or reserve list for Shepperton but made it low down on the reserve list for HPP early May, but too low to get a chance of a place. Still don't know if we are on the start list for HPP at the end of May, and we don't know about any of the races later in the year. I don't believe this is published until just before the race, although perhaps some people taking entries do email people back, but adds to their workload.
Re: Race Entry
We would all love automation and we have got used to being able to order items on line and get immediate e-mails confirming your order. I work for an IT company and we spend millions on developing IT systems for policyholders. IT costs are not cheap. They not only need clear requirements of what is required for the system to do but they then need developed and further enhanced when the next seasons calendar and other changes are required as well as being maintained when they inevitably break.
Most people involved in slalom are involved because they or members of their family once competed in slalom and not for their IT skills. The slalom budget in the UK is not big and most of what comes in is used wisely to support the running of the sport. For example, in Scotland, the only income the slalom committee has comes from administration fees from events in Scotland and will be about £4000. Hardly a large sum of money to play with. i would imagine the timing system we use consumes a fair chunk of BCU slalom committee expenses. We also now have an online ranking system thanks to D Berriman but this requires resource from Duncan to maintain.
There must be an online package already out there that could be used for entries without developing our own 'in house' system. Does anyone know what entry system other sports are using?
Most people want to know their entry has been received so maybe all we need at this stage is that you ask for an e-mail confirmation from the organiser that the entry has been received within a week of it being received (Organisers work so we need to allow then sufficient time to process entries).
For me, we want a simple way or entering online and paying online. Ideally, these would be done together but could be done separately for Division 1 and Premier at those events which opt in as follows -
1. In the yearbook/on line calendar, publish the sort code and bank account that entry fees can be paid into
2. Create a unique reference for each paddler e.g. K1M35Clarke (ref for a paddler in Div 1 with Bib 35 and surname Clark) that must be used as the reference when the payment is made
3. Having an Excel entry card which can be completed and e-mailed to to the organiser (this might help the organiser read what the paddler has written - this would include this unique reference and entry payment date).
However, although this would help those entering, it will increase the work of the person receiving the entries as they will need to match the bank account entry with the e-mail entry and their club may not have access to online banking.
Might be worth a try in 2015 if any organiser wants to try it out. Most organisers have been organising events for years and have got a workable system for accepting entries. Any revised system needs to take into account the views of these valuable organisers as we cannot afford to alienate them and lose the valuable service they provide to the sport.
Most people involved in slalom are involved because they or members of their family once competed in slalom and not for their IT skills. The slalom budget in the UK is not big and most of what comes in is used wisely to support the running of the sport. For example, in Scotland, the only income the slalom committee has comes from administration fees from events in Scotland and will be about £4000. Hardly a large sum of money to play with. i would imagine the timing system we use consumes a fair chunk of BCU slalom committee expenses. We also now have an online ranking system thanks to D Berriman but this requires resource from Duncan to maintain.
There must be an online package already out there that could be used for entries without developing our own 'in house' system. Does anyone know what entry system other sports are using?
Most people want to know their entry has been received so maybe all we need at this stage is that you ask for an e-mail confirmation from the organiser that the entry has been received within a week of it being received (Organisers work so we need to allow then sufficient time to process entries).
For me, we want a simple way or entering online and paying online. Ideally, these would be done together but could be done separately for Division 1 and Premier at those events which opt in as follows -
1. In the yearbook/on line calendar, publish the sort code and bank account that entry fees can be paid into
2. Create a unique reference for each paddler e.g. K1M35Clarke (ref for a paddler in Div 1 with Bib 35 and surname Clark) that must be used as the reference when the payment is made
3. Having an Excel entry card which can be completed and e-mailed to to the organiser (this might help the organiser read what the paddler has written - this would include this unique reference and entry payment date).
However, although this would help those entering, it will increase the work of the person receiving the entries as they will need to match the bank account entry with the e-mail entry and their club may not have access to online banking.
Might be worth a try in 2015 if any organiser wants to try it out. Most organisers have been organising events for years and have got a workable system for accepting entries. Any revised system needs to take into account the views of these valuable organisers as we cannot afford to alienate them and lose the valuable service they provide to the sport.
Re: Race Entry
I think Howsham Weir did online entries last year - what system is that and how does it work? Does anybody know?
Perhaps the account for payments could be set up using the Slalom Committee's bank account, or a new account, and then they send a cheque/bank transfer to the hosting club before/after the event.
Perhaps the account for payments could be set up using the Slalom Committee's bank account, or a new account, and then they send a cheque/bank transfer to the hosting club before/after the event.
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djberriman
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Re: Race Entry
Wasn't Howsham the only one I am aware of is Nene.
Re: Race Entry
You are correct, just had a look for this year and Nene is indeed online. Looks like its been done be a keen volunteer, but would appear to do the job well enough.
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djberriman
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- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
Re: Race Entry
Those figures don't give a true reflection in my opinion:-
Those paddlers who actually raced in Div 1 K1M in 2014 = 166 (114 were in Div 1 at start of year or got reinstated).
Same figure for 2013 is 152 (108 in were Div 1 at start of year or got reinstated)
Prem K1M in 2014 = 71 (52 in Prem at start of year)
Prem K1M in 2013 = 71 (61 in Prem at start of year)
Can't guarantee those are totally correct as I've only just run a quick couple of queries on the ranking database but they appear similar to what I have found previously.
Number of results
Div1 K1M
2014 = 1243 (18 races), average paddlers per race 69
2013 = 1040 (16 races), average paddlers per race 65
Prem K1M
2014 = 609 (10 races), average paddlers per race = 61
2013 = 579 (11 races), average paddlers per race = 52
These figures include paddle ups, pan celtics etc. The increase from 2013 to 2014 is probably paddeups. I could probably work it out.
Those paddlers who actually raced in Div 1 K1M in 2014 = 166 (114 were in Div 1 at start of year or got reinstated).
Same figure for 2013 is 152 (108 in were Div 1 at start of year or got reinstated)
Prem K1M in 2014 = 71 (52 in Prem at start of year)
Prem K1M in 2013 = 71 (61 in Prem at start of year)
Can't guarantee those are totally correct as I've only just run a quick couple of queries on the ranking database but they appear similar to what I have found previously.
Number of results
Div1 K1M
2014 = 1243 (18 races), average paddlers per race 69
2013 = 1040 (16 races), average paddlers per race 65
Prem K1M
2014 = 609 (10 races), average paddlers per race = 61
2013 = 579 (11 races), average paddlers per race = 52
These figures include paddle ups, pan celtics etc. The increase from 2013 to 2014 is probably paddeups. I could probably work it out.
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
Re: Race Entry
The major problems I see with online entry are very briefly :-
The additional cost
Having to print/fill in the entry cards
Asking everyone to sign their card
Having to reconcile payments with entries
Data protection/security issues
Paypal/Bank accounts issues
Before online entries can really be done
Paddlers will have to accept potentially being charged more for online entry
We need to go cardless
We need to get rid of the signature requirement on cards
Like most things it takes someone to do it, solve all the issues, get it adopted in the rules, built into entry/results systems and offer it to the community as a whole as I did with the ranking database and as Ken has done with Simply Slalom, each needs maintenance each year as rules change. Expecting someone else to do it, the slalom committee to do it or to pay for some such system to be developed is a non starter.
I could easily do an online entry system however I do not have the time. So I would suggest someone or some of those asking for it get together and do it. Perhaps the nene system could be adopted or be used as a starting point.
The additional cost
Having to print/fill in the entry cards
Asking everyone to sign their card
Having to reconcile payments with entries
Data protection/security issues
Paypal/Bank accounts issues
Before online entries can really be done
Paddlers will have to accept potentially being charged more for online entry
We need to go cardless
We need to get rid of the signature requirement on cards
Like most things it takes someone to do it, solve all the issues, get it adopted in the rules, built into entry/results systems and offer it to the community as a whole as I did with the ranking database and as Ken has done with Simply Slalom, each needs maintenance each year as rules change. Expecting someone else to do it, the slalom committee to do it or to pay for some such system to be developed is a non starter.
I could easily do an online entry system however I do not have the time. So I would suggest someone or some of those asking for it get together and do it. Perhaps the nene system could be adopted or be used as a starting point.
Re: Race Entry
I'm quite happy to assist with an online tool. I can at least do the design, probably need a PHP developer to build it to keep costs to a minimum though.
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
Re: Race Entry
Just some quick thoughts based on my work with the ranking database.
There are paddlers in the same class, same age with the same surname, people enter more than one class, parents or clubs may enter more than one paddler, you must also take into account multi class discount and I believe they get complicated if C2's are involved. I'd actually suggest any payment reference is just a unique reference to the submission whether it contain a single or multiple entries. The system should probably calculate the correct fee.
The organiser might not have access to the bank account (particularly if it centralised) but even at club level this is unlikely so reconciling payments might be an issue. Chasing money owed after an event would be a non starter. That one can probably be overcome but it's worth thinking about.
You'd be suprised how many peope can't complete an entry card correctly even down to using the wrong bib number. It wastes a lot of the organisers time. Let alone trying to work out why the correct fee has or has not been paid and who it relates to if they don't put it in, put the wrong one in or certain banks don't show it (it happens beleive me).
The ranking database can help as every paddler has a unique identifier and it is the same each year as long as you continue to keep yourself ranked. You won't currently know it nor need to know it but there is one. Not sure it's needed but it is there, every paddler is linked to every bib they have, which may be many, K1, C1, multiple C2, more if they get promoted.
It would have to cope with promoted paddlers with no bib numbers and unknown (new or direct entry) paddlers plus paddle ups.
Not all organisers will have excel, nor perhaps the correct version of excel or the correct type of excel, so it shouldn't rely on this or any other software, nor a particular type of printer for instance with certain features. You can probably rely on the fact they have some version of windows (xp, 7 or
but that is about it.
Whatever the system it should not cause significant extra work for the organiser, hopefully it should reduce it. If it does increase work or its complicated expect that some organisers will not use it, they do enough already, many are not IT experts, some may not even use or make limited use of the internet.
Hopefully it would for the most part use the ranking database for most of its information (as Simply Slalom does - when you press the update bib list button it downloads them from it) therefore reducing errors in bib numbers, names etc and provide a set of data which could be imported into simply slalom (a csv file and cut and paste would be a starting point - perhaps Ken could be persuaded to have an import option).
The legal issues are however not to be sniffed at, someone would have to take responsibility for data protection and that is a fairly serious issue which would involve producing a secure system, ensuring data is transmitted securely, any payment details are held very securely and everything is managed in accordance with a data protection policy.
There are paddlers in the same class, same age with the same surname, people enter more than one class, parents or clubs may enter more than one paddler, you must also take into account multi class discount and I believe they get complicated if C2's are involved. I'd actually suggest any payment reference is just a unique reference to the submission whether it contain a single or multiple entries. The system should probably calculate the correct fee.
The organiser might not have access to the bank account (particularly if it centralised) but even at club level this is unlikely so reconciling payments might be an issue. Chasing money owed after an event would be a non starter. That one can probably be overcome but it's worth thinking about.
You'd be suprised how many peope can't complete an entry card correctly even down to using the wrong bib number. It wastes a lot of the organisers time. Let alone trying to work out why the correct fee has or has not been paid and who it relates to if they don't put it in, put the wrong one in or certain banks don't show it (it happens beleive me).
The ranking database can help as every paddler has a unique identifier and it is the same each year as long as you continue to keep yourself ranked. You won't currently know it nor need to know it but there is one. Not sure it's needed but it is there, every paddler is linked to every bib they have, which may be many, K1, C1, multiple C2, more if they get promoted.
It would have to cope with promoted paddlers with no bib numbers and unknown (new or direct entry) paddlers plus paddle ups.
Not all organisers will have excel, nor perhaps the correct version of excel or the correct type of excel, so it shouldn't rely on this or any other software, nor a particular type of printer for instance with certain features. You can probably rely on the fact they have some version of windows (xp, 7 or
but that is about it.Whatever the system it should not cause significant extra work for the organiser, hopefully it should reduce it. If it does increase work or its complicated expect that some organisers will not use it, they do enough already, many are not IT experts, some may not even use or make limited use of the internet.
Hopefully it would for the most part use the ranking database for most of its information (as Simply Slalom does - when you press the update bib list button it downloads them from it) therefore reducing errors in bib numbers, names etc and provide a set of data which could be imported into simply slalom (a csv file and cut and paste would be a starting point - perhaps Ken could be persuaded to have an import option).
The legal issues are however not to be sniffed at, someone would have to take responsibility for data protection and that is a fairly serious issue which would involve producing a secure system, ensuring data is transmitted securely, any payment details are held very securely and everything is managed in accordance with a data protection policy.
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
Re: Race Entry
PS. Costs should be £0. Don't expect to get paid for it.
Re: Race Entry
stevepearson wrote:Looking at the increase in size of K1M Prem & K1M Div1 during 2014:
K1M started 2014 with 150ish bibs & finished with 219, 6 people were demoted so an increase of 64ish paddlers or 42% - wow!
K1M Prem started 2014 with 66 bibs & finished with 86, 8 people were demoted so increase of 12 paddlers - 18%.
The reason - perhaps due to number of Div2 races then it's more likely to get promoted into Div1, but less Div1 races means less likely to get into Prem.
There will always be a number of people who stop racing & the numbers will no doubt be skewed in other ways, but there appears to be a trend for Div1 to become a bottle neck and perhaps this trend could also be considered in views on race format/divisions ect going forward.
I would concur with the comments above
It seems that with more than double the amount of actual days of Div 2 v Div 1 races this year that the system is creating the bottle neck and that's not even taking into account portable points when that kicks in and the impact . A committed paddler/parent who went to a lot of races could easily find themselves in Div 1. I can't believe that a system that prevents people paddling/progressing by creating over subscription is positive for the sport. I also think that the Div 2 races may be too easy - with some exceptions. What to do - create an extra division, increase the points that it takes to get promoted to Div 1, reduce the amount of points available in Div 2.............who knows. It seems clear that it can't continue like this
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
Re: Race Entry
Just looked at Tully Saturday for comparison. Figures in brackets are compared to 2014 bearing in mind it was a 1/2 in 2014.
188 entries (-20)
1K1W 49 (+8)
1K1M 88 (+13)
1C1M 19 (+5)
1C1W 19 (+8)
P/1 C2 9 (+4)
VET P/1 K1M 1 (-1)
VET P/1 K1W 1 (+1)
2K1W 1 (-14)
2C1M 1 (-4)
2K1M 0 (-36)
2C1W 0 (-3)
I don't load officials into the ranking database.
but there were 23 in 2015, 18 in 2014.
211 entries in total 2015, 232 in 2014. Discrepenecy in figures is down to non ranked paddlers in 2014.
So 21 less entries were accepted , a lot of the increases is accounted for by an incease in canadian paddlers who may well have been doing another class as well. It's not all about the size of Div 1, its also about multi discipline paddlers, the growth of C1W and C2, an increase in officials, plus organisers realising previous entry limits were perhaps excessive or often exceeded.
188 entries (-20)
1K1W 49 (+8)
1K1M 88 (+13)
1C1M 19 (+5)
1C1W 19 (+8)
P/1 C2 9 (+4)
VET P/1 K1M 1 (-1)
VET P/1 K1W 1 (+1)
2K1W 1 (-14)
2C1M 1 (-4)
2K1M 0 (-36)
2C1W 0 (-3)
I don't load officials into the ranking database.
but there were 23 in 2015, 18 in 2014.
211 entries in total 2015, 232 in 2014. Discrepenecy in figures is down to non ranked paddlers in 2014.
So 21 less entries were accepted , a lot of the increases is accounted for by an incease in canadian paddlers who may well have been doing another class as well. It's not all about the size of Div 1, its also about multi discipline paddlers, the growth of C1W and C2, an increase in officials, plus organisers realising previous entry limits were perhaps excessive or often exceeded.
Re: Race Entry
With regard to portable points. I 've done a bit of digging around and at the moment the portable points motion passed at the last ACM enables them to be brought in next year with no further action or approval.
However this could be revisited if there is a motion put to the next ACM to revisit / reverse the decision. There is a rule that motions that are passed can be revisited if a) they were not passed by a large majority and b) new facts have come to light.
So those who are concerned about portable points and in the light of current experiences would like to have another think/look at it, it can be raised at the next ACM. So there is time to organise a motion for the next ACM about it.
However this could be revisited if there is a motion put to the next ACM to revisit / reverse the decision. There is a rule that motions that are passed can be revisited if a) they were not passed by a large majority and b) new facts have come to light.
So those who are concerned about portable points and in the light of current experiences would like to have another think/look at it, it can be raised at the next ACM. So there is time to organise a motion for the next ACM about it.
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Seedy Paddler
- Posts: 440
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 2:00 pm
Re: Race Entry
Not strictly true Sven, the motion in 2014 was an enabling motion that requires the Slalom Committee to draft and present the appropriate Rule changes. Hence the changes in Rules will require to be presented and voted in at the ACM this year, there is an option if the system is not going to meet expectations that those rules may be opposed and the change will not happen.