Race Entry

[paddlerparent]

I notice that Shepperton is full, and there is a waiting list, and that paddle ups are not accepted, and any cheques received for paddlers that cannot race will be shredded.

But there are entries on the list with '£' payment required - so my question is simple. How can they be accepted as an entry with no payment?

Surely they should have been notified that entry wasn't complete & that until payment was received their place was not guaranteed. In that case the people who completed race entry correctly would have been accepted.


I suppose what i'm after is clarification for future races - it's likely with Tully being full too that people will just send off entry cards without a cheque & take a space for someone who would naturally send the complete entry with a cheque

[davebrads]

As organiser of HPP Div 1 I certainly am only accepting entries with payment, but if there is an error in the amount I will still take the entry and you will see a £ against the name on the start list. Perhaps this is what has happened here?

What concerns me as an organiser is that people may be putting entries in before they are able to confirm that they can make the race, then looking to withdraw the entry once they have sorted out their calendar. I had an unusually large number of such requests last year and I expect more this year. Of course the paddler wants their money back even though this is in contravention of the published rules. I normally do agree however, as otherwise they wouldn't tell me at all and as I will have a waiting list I want to get a full start list. This does create a significant amount of extra work, deleting the entry, processing the replacement entry, and finding and destroying the cheque which does upset me though.

[Chris Baillie]

On my start lists, like Dave a £ sign on an entry usually indicates a number of errors in the money received.

In one case this year I owe the paddler 25p, in others they sent last years entry fee so they owe me £1.25. Also for instance in the case of Tully I have several paddlers who sent a cheque for the double event £31, but currently only have a space on saturday and are on the waiting list for Sunday so I have the cheque and if the situation remains unchanged I can give a refund of the difference between single and double or return the cheque and they can give me another cheque or cash.

Hope this helps explain the £ sign.

Chris

[Nick Taylor]

Just thought I'd share an idea I've been trying out regardng entry fees
I'm using PayPal to try to sort out all the £ issues before the event. It's free for both organiser & competitor
I guess it won't suit everyone but so far I've had a few people use it - both to pay extra & also accept a refund

[djberriman]

My understanding is that paypal is free between friends/relatives, there are reduced fees for non profits (once you have proved you are a non profit), so any organisation using the 'free' option is potentially skating on thin ice and is probably making a false declaration. That is of course each individuals/organisations choice.

[Sven]

Further to DaveBrads post maybe the time has come to say no refunds if you pull out of a race . Know it is going against the spirit of how slalom is run, but full races 6 months in advance only for entrants to pull out at the last minute is a bit of a nightmare for the organiser and not really fair on those who genuinely want to enter, I would think!

[CeeBee]

Personally, I don't any problem with people withdrawing so long as they give enough notice. Plans change and people get ill. Generally, only a few withdraw and so although it incurs a bit of effort by the organiser to find the cheque, I think it is the spirit of our sport to allow people to withdraw. I would rather get the entries in ample time and sorted. So, if you withdraw by say, the closing date that is fine by me.

By far the biggest problem for an organiser is late entries. You create a start list at the closing date and then spent several more hours adding in 'late' entrants and adjusting the timings. But again, you organise a sport for paddlers and so if people find they can now go, they are polite and there is space, then I'm happy to accept the entry.

[Sven]

That is probably the case for lower division races, but Dave is pointing to " unusually large numbers" of entrants pulling out. At a time when Div 1 races are "full" six months in advance the situation probably bears looking at.

[CeeBee]

If races are oversubscribed, people are forced into entering the races too early before they have worked out if they can go to make sure they get an entry. The inevitable consequence of this is that more people will get promoted between entering and the race and so withdraw and more people will change their mind and withdraw.

I don't have the answer but I would rather people told me they weren't coming and give them their entry fee back rather than not bothering because I kept their entry fee and thus depriving someone else of the space.

[Sven]

I take your point, but there is (as always) a different way of looking at the situation. People put their entries in for the whole year - because it is administratively easier to do so - the races fill up very quickly, organisers publicise the fact that the race is full or very nearly full, this year as much as 6 months in advance. This in turn puts others off from entering so they make other arrangements, those who entered at the start of the season change their minds lets say a week before the race and pull out. Thereby potentially leaving a space any way that could have been filled by someone else who originally wanted to race.

Yes I understand that organisers compile waiting lists etc but I know of a number of people who decided not to race because it was fully subscribed early.

All of this is of course a personal choice. However I have a couple of questions A Why has this become an issue over the last couple of years - I really doubt that en masse people have become more organised to that extent. B How can it be resolved, I seem to remember reading somewhere that putting an earliest date you can enter rule in too might help. This may be a better solution than exercising the right to keep the entry fee.

[Canadian Paddler]

Point of information entry fees are only refunded out of the goodness of the organiser's heart / a desire to keep people comig back:

UK C11.6.2ENTRY FEES ARE NOT RETURNABLE - except:
- where a Competitor is promoted to a higher division and is thus ineligible to compete at an event already entered. The entry fees will be refunded providing the Organiser is notified AT LEAST FIVE DAYS before the event.
- if an event is cancelled prior to the publication of a start list or on or before the Saturday of the immediately preceding weekend, whichever is the earlier.
- if an event is cancelled due to circumstances beyond the control of Organiser, up to the time that the course is declared open for free practice, (official practice for Premier/Division 1)

and

UK C11.4.6 Payment of the advertised entry fee must be made to the organiser using one of the advertised acceptable forms of payment for the event. Avoidance or failed payment will lead to disqualification and may lead to other disciplinary proceedings. Entries accepted, verbally or in writing, by the Organiser in good faith, constitute a promise to pay the correct fee whether or not the Competitor takes part in the event.

[Dee]

... Why has this become an issue over the last couple of years - I really doubt that en masse people have become more organised to that extent. ....

I don't think it has really been that sudden. 9/10 years ago most div 1/2 races were still taking entries on the day making these races an utter nightmare to organise. Organisers started to refuse entries after a certain date which pushed pre-entries up and overall numbers started to increase. Some events revised numbers of entries that could be accepted and lots started to hit their maximum number a few days before the event (though the numbers actually turning up would often be slightly fewer). Then late entry fees went up and people started to realise that getting entries in two weeks before was financially worthwhile and a few years ago we started to fill up two weeks in advance of the race. So people started to get entries in a bit earlier just in case.

This year a couple of races filled up earlier and the community went into panic buying mode.

I have no doubts that there will be more cancellations/no-shows this year than in previous years, but this may be hard to substantiate!

[davebrads]

The sport has changed significantly since I started paddling. In those days I think we had 1000 div 2 K1M! and if you wanted to enter the more popular div 2 races you had to get your entry in very early. However in those days there were far fewer juniors, women and C1s racing and on the whole most paddlers raced for fun in between doing other things - there were very few committed racers. The advent of plastic boats took out a lot of those paddlers and the sport shrank significantly, and people got used to sending entries in at the last minute. The sport is growing now, but it has also changed in that the majority of paddlers are juniors with aspirations who want to race as often as possible.

I think that the divisions should be sized so that all (or at least very nearly all) paddlers that want to race can get an entry. That would mean reducing the size of division 1, demoting paddlers to division 2. Division 2 is also getting big and this will mean the end of most 2/3 events.

The problem with this is that many of the demotees will be good but less committed paddlers, and we will lose them altogether if they don't have decent water to race on. My answer would be to reduce the number of division 1 races (I think there are far too many anyway) converting them to div 2 races, perhaps turning double div 1s into 1/2s. Where costs are high we should use the existing facility to charge a bit extra for the division 2 entries, I can't see this putting many off these days. As a bonus this will bring back the days when paddlers would judge to get more experience, something that has been lost due to the crowded calendar.

[BaldockBabe]

Remember that next year portable points are being introduced so there will only be single division events.

I concur that Div 2 events need to be made more attractive to those who can manage bigger water but don't have the chance to train to have the speed to remain in the higher divisions...

[Sven]

I know the portable points got voted through at the ACM ?? But to date I have not heard anything really positive about the scheme - is this something worth revisiting with perhaps a fuller engagement now that people have had a chance to really consider the impact the scheme may have in other areas?