2016 ACM - Portable Points Proposal

[djberriman]

Since some of us perhaps didn't spend enough time thinking about portable points I thought I'd raise a proposal now. PLEASE do not hijack this thread and rant on about something else, start your own, I would like this to FOCUS on THIS proposal. I would like feedback good and back so I can shape this proposal which I am am sure will not be the only one for next years ACM.

I am sure there are some things I have overlooked or not forseen so please fire away but keep on the subject of this proposal.

Proposal (in short)

Retain double events
Paddle up points only allowed at single events (ie on harder water and course set at higher level)
Paddle up points (portable) calculated by matching nearest divisional paddler these can be ported and applied to own division multiplied by 2, max 1000.
Original value of any paddle up points retained on promotion
Divisional paddlers points not affected

Thus pretty much as we are now except:-
Paddle up points not allowed at doubles
Points are portable back to own division
Paddle up points (original not mulitplied) are retained on promotion
All paddle up paddlers get some points.

Long ramble:-

It is clear to me that many people like what we have now and it works in many ways, many of the features we enjoy now would have been lost under the proposed portable points and if we are honest the proposal probably only survived because there was a delay option. Thus we have to focus on keeping what we have now BUT allowing those who wish to paddle up to do so and allow for accelerated promotion (that said it is possible to do Div 4 to Div 1 in 12 months, I know I did it).

There was some discussion that paddlers got all or nothing under the current arrangement, the above proposal rewards those who acheive a good standard in the division above on harder water with points they can utilise in their current division.

In this proposal you keep your paddle up points on promotion, so score 500 points paddling up at a div 1, that's worth 1000 points in Div2, when you get promoted you already have 500 points on your total. There are therefore 2 incentives, worthwhile points in your current division and starting to build your points in your next division.

One of the problems with the proposed solution was that it would totally randomise points for the people actually ranked in the division. Depending on the number of paddle ups you may get pretty much zero or say 500 points for coming last in your own division. In this proposal the host division is left alone and runs as it does now allowing for paddle up but without having points scewed by them.

I am proposing that you can not paddle up at doubles, I believe this was the original intention of the original motion, to allow paddlers to paddle up and prove their worth on harder courses and bigger water. The top paddlers will still score top points in their own division so I do not see the need for paddles up at doubles and it makes implementing portable points very complicated and confusing if allowed. It is also possible that depending on what events are on the level of competiion at doubles could mean its easier to acheive a good paddle up results. For instance If there is a Div1 on it could be that the top 20 div 2 paddlers are racing paddle up at the div 1 so the level of competition at a 2/3 on the same weekend will be lower. So in my mind at least paddle ups should be restricted to single division events.

[paddlerparent]

Great Post!

Think about the impact of people who would previously judged but now padding - i assume (dangerous - i know) that some people wanted experience of bigger water but knew they would not get the previous 40% result for 1,000 points & will now want to race not judge. This may impact on available judges at race days.

[JimW]

On first read through it looks promising but if I may dwell on a particular detail.....

You are proposing no paddle up at double events based on the assumption that both divisions will be racing on the same course and water.
It is possible with our modern pumped artificial courses to vary the water almost at the flick of a switch (allow 5 minutes to settle and 15 to adjust gate heights) and run very different standards of race for each division without significant delay to the programme. This was tried and tested at Pinkston in May with a Div 2 and 3 event using 2 and 1 pumps respectively, the course was also run on 3 pumps over the lunch break for officials to have a play, and I'm sure most will agree that the character of the course changes significantly with the flow even with the gates in the same positions.

Would you be prepared to modify the proposal to allow paddling up at doubles where it is possible to have a very clear and distinct difference between water or course between divisions (there must be some venues where there is easier water downstream for a separate lower division course - I'm not sure that West Tanfield solution of cutting the first 2 tricky gates for div 3 and 4 would be distinct enough though?)?

[djberriman]

That would seem fine, they would have course have to paddle up, that is race in the higher division. Would be happy to add that. I think you could word it something like on artificial courses where the water flow is substantially changed for each division paddlers may enter the higher division and paddle up.

[djberriman]

For clarity (Thanks Dave) all divisions points are calculated from 1000 points as now under the above proposal.

[djberriman]

It has been proposed to allow paddlers to take back 2*points with no limit. I hadn't thought of that and to be honest if they are good enough to get above half way in the next division then they probably deserve those points and to get promoted quickly.

So if someone came 3/4 the way up the results when compared they would get something like 750 points meaning they could take 1500 points back to their lower division rather than the max 1000 proposed.

[BaldockBabe]

That would seem fine, they would have course have to paddle up, that is race in the higher division. Would be happy to add that. I think you could word it something like on artificial courses where the water flow is substantially changed for each division paddlers may enter the higher division and paddle up.

I would qualify that so that if this were the case they could either paddle up in the div 2 or enter the div 3 but not enter both and effectively get 4 races in one weekend. This was something that was clarified for events like the McConkey where a paddler in P/1 (at that time in the C2 or CW1) who did not expect to get to the semis and finals could apply for the P on the sat and div 1 on the Sun.

[djberriman]

Good point re racing both races. Point noted.

[harratts]

Hi all.

Can anyone advise what has happened with the working party looking into the topic of Portable Points which was created at last years ACM?

As I recall a motion was passed to delay the introduction of such a system for 12 months (together with single division races) and not to prevent their introduction altogether during future seasons.

If those of us who are against such a points system being introduced do nothing, then we only have ourselves to point the finger at when the system is brought in at this years ACM and there may not even need to be a vote taken before doing so!

Steve

[frognrose]

The div 3 winner at Sundays race, Llandysul, would have finished in Div 2 in 5th place just 0.2 seconds behind 4th place.I don't think he would appreciate the suggestion of only receiving 750 points as a paddle up. to get to 4150 points you need to be getting over 800 points in 5 races on average. Those in Div 3 need to have the experience of courses like Llandysul , Symonds Yat and Washburn and other simular courses otherwise they won't be able to cope in div2. If at the agm it is decided to implement the 1 division only courses and lump div 3 and 4 together then those in div 3 will get very little white water experience and not cope in Div 2. May be we should have a div 5 for the beginers with 1 paddler in 5 being promoted to a Div 4 when they compete and are in the top points etc , then use a more rigorous points system in div 4 so that they gain more experience before div 3 and so on. those paddlers who ,what ever there age, win or are in 2nd or 3rd place in all the races they enter will still progress rapidly through the divisions.

[djberriman]

Unsure where it says he would only get 750 points for paddle up. Clearly as winner in Div 3 he got 1000 points/win anyway. Under my suggestion he would get 1000 points for a paddle up or 1742 (depending on whether there is a limit of 1000 or simply double points). Personally I'm against paddle up at dual division events as it does not fit with the original intention of paddle up which was passed at the ACM which was to allow paddlers to test themselves on harder water at the higher level events. It's also adds complication to the rules and the results, currently it has to be done manually. But that is just my humble opinion. PU won't make much odds to this paddler anyway by the looks of things. They will be promoted quite quickly to Div 2 if they carry on paddling like that.

There is plenty of opportunity to experience any level just judge. For white water experience I'd suggest paddlers spend as much time as possible paddling white water with or preferably some of the time without gates. This will do far more to accelerate their abilities than attending a race where they get 3 runs down the river with the pressure of getting a result rather than improving their skills.