Opening dates for entries -Personal Discussion thread

[Dee]

Dee
'Bag could be two part - electronic via an entry system and physical. Means an extra step for electronic entry system, but would allow people to know they were properly in the queue.

But if you are going to be drawing at random say taking it in turns between bag and system then a significant number of people will do both so that'll be fun!

[davebrads]

I think what is really needed is more div 1 races - i know, i know who is going to run them etc etc etc but with more races paddlers can then be restricted to entering a max number in any one season which would ease the oversubscription issue and open opportunities for paddleup entrants.

I don't think increasing the number of div 1 races is the answer. The more popular ones (i.e. those in the middle of the country) would fill up just as fast, only those at the extremes such as Llandysul and Grandtully might have space - and then they may end up short of entries!

To my mind the answer is to reduce the size of the division, it is clearly too big. Some could be promoted to Prem, there is certainly room for expansion, and others demoted to Div 2. Some classes need to be cut drastically, it is far too easy to get to div 1 in C1W and C2, and that is where a lot of the doubling up is occurring.

We still need more races, but these need to be quality div 2 races so that those with the technical ability to race on decent water still can when they aren't fast enough to cut it in div 1. The only problem is that the quality courses tend to be expensive, but if we use the ability to charge a premium for racing at such courses I am sure it won't affect entry numbers to much while allowing the organising club to make a bit of profit for their efforts.

[Kelso]

I am processing entries for Grandtully Div 1 August 27-28.
To date (1 Feb) I have 70 entries received.
That is a third of them done and dusted.

I am quite content to process entries as soon as people wish to send them.
Entrants just need to know that I present all cheques as soon as received.
If anyone were to ask (nobody has yet), I would accept payment by bank transfer, or even Paypal.
If there is a hiccup with a payment, I always offer bank transfer, as it is quick and verifiable.
People can email me a screenshot of their transfer, and be on the Start List in a couple of minutes.
I do this quite a lot with Promotees from the event just before ours.

I understand that many people will be making their accommodation arrangements, which in our case is rather like booking summer holidays at a very popular destination.
1. Many of those who caravan or motorvan at Grandtully Campsite make pitch reservations when the leave the year before.
(Anita told me all caravan pitches were booked before the end of December).
2. Accommodation in the Tay Valley at the peak of the holiday season is at a premium,
and anyone attempting to book accommodation just two months ahead is very likely to be disappointed.

"Early Entries" are a fact of life.
If we do not accept them, we risk losing entrants.

IMHO The problem of "Opening Dates for Entries" is simply a reflection that it is a tedious and long process for entry processors.
We need to address how we can streamline the process to make it as painless as possible for entrants and for organisers.
(So that "entry processors" do not have to do anything until a couple of weeks before their event)

We use a commercial provider (Azolve) to process entries for
- Tay Descent.
- WWPF (Wet West Paddlefest)
- SCA Surf Kayak Championships
and it is "rolling out" for other of our events in Scotland.
There is a merchant charge which would require to be passed to entrants, but they would have no postage or stationery costs.
I am not sure how it may be linked to pull data from the Ranking List, but should not be too difficult.
Nor am I sure what the output is, but I am sure it can be a csv file or similar which can import to a spreadsheet or anything else we specify.
How start times are added etc. to produce a Start List and Timing team list also needs to be worked out.

I may be behind and unaware of work that other people are doing on this, but if you folk would like me to pursue the above, I am willing to get a member of SCA staff to look into it and report back with feasibility, probable costs (CAPEX and ongoing), source of funding and timescale to a pilot scheme.
With a bit of luck I should be able source whatever funding is required.
I would seek all your guidance and opinions.

I am sorry this has drifted off the specific thread of "Opening Dates for Entries"... my vote is to allow entries as soon as people want to enter.

[Dee]

Kelso, on line only would free organiser's from the ongoing need to process entries which us why I suggested we should be aiming for that.

However, the downside to allowing everyone to enter early is that mid season promotees and others that can't book early will not get the opportunity as everything will be fully booked. The more I think about it the more I think we should stagger the release of places.

[davebrads]

I don't know why we are even discussing this. For the sport to work for its participants then they all should have a reasonable chance of getting an entry without having to plan the whole year as soon as the calendar is released. The system we use has been working for many years, when the sport as a whole had far more participants than it does now. The only time that I can remember events filling up much before the closing date were the really popular division 2 races on the Tryweryn, and I have a feeling that there were 1000 K1M in div 2 in those days!

The problem is that division 1 is too big, and if we solve that we won't have to complicate things further. So promote some, demote others, get rid of paddle up (what a dreadful idea, why did it ever get through), slow down promotion in C1W and C2. Anything else?

[BaldockBabe]

The problem is that division 1 is too big, and if we solve that we won't have to complicate things further. So promote some, demote others, get rid of paddle up (what a dreadful idea, why did it ever get through), slow down promotion in C1W and C2. Anything else?

Put more div 2 events on water that is more challenging. I gave up C1 when I was demoted to Div 2 as I did not want to bother travelling around the country to paddle on Div 2 water - I decided to only judge at Div 1 events instead. Thankfully people like you are willing to hold a Div 2 at HPP

[davebrads]

The problem is that division 1 is too big, and if we solve that we won't have to complicate things further. So promote some, demote others, get rid of paddle up (what a dreadful idea, why did it ever get through), slow down promotion in C1W and C2. Anything else?

Put more div 2 events on water that is more challenging. I gave up C1 when I was demoted to Div 2 as I did not want to bother travelling around the country to paddle on Div 2 water - I decided to only judge at Div 1 events instead. Thankfully people like you are willing to hold a Div 2 at HPP

Getting new events is always going to be a struggle but there is another answer, not that it will be popular with some. Turn some of the div 1 events into div 2 events.

[Dee]

The problem is that division 1 is too big, and if we solve that we won't have to complicate things further. So promote some, demote others, get rid of paddle up (what a dreadful idea, why did it ever get through), slow down promotion in C1W and C2. Anything else?

Put more div 2 events on water that is more challenging. I gave up C1 when I was demoted to Div 2 as I did not want to bother travelling around the country to paddle on Div 2 water - I decided to only judge at Div 1 events instead. Thankfully people like you are willing to hold a Div 2 at HPP

I know of a few who have left the sport when demoted from div 1 to div 2 and therein lies the problem with shrinking div 1 by demoting to div 2

[BaldockBabe]

Now that there are rules that allow for enhanced entry fees would it be doable to re-introduce Div 2 events to venues such as the Trywerwyn/ Tees/ other difficult places that existed long before I got involved in the sport?

Dee - fortunately for us oldies we can now claim VET and still race on the bigger water and now more people are doing so at P/1 level it is almost getting competitive but that option doesn't exist for those u35 (how can 35 be vet - goodness me!). So unless a solution is found we will keep losing those people...

[davebrads]

I know of a few who have left the sport when demoted from div 1 to div 2 and therein lies the problem with shrinking div 1 by demoting to div 2

It is probably the same paddlers that we are losing now because they can't get an entry. Few of the older paddlers want to have to plan their year in advance and therefore won't be racing this year, and most of those will then be lost forever. This will be a great loss to our sport because it is these paddlers who set up and maintain the training groups around the country inspiring new young paddlers, both within and outside clubs, so the impact is more far-reaching than just losing a few oldies.

I know I sound like an old man, which I am, but in the old days the natural home for those paddlers who were no longer had the ambition to chase promotion was division 2. And as we had races at good venues such as the Tryweryn/HPP/Washburn it suited them. The reason we lose them now is that there isn't the quality of races available in division 2 to keep their interest.

[Dee]

Now that there are rules that allow for enhanced entry fees would it be doable to re-introduce Div 2 events to venues such as the Trywerwyn/ Tees/ other difficult places that existed long before I got involved in the sport?

Dee - fortunately for us oldies we can now claim VET and still race on the bigger water and now more people are doing so at P/1 level it is almost getting competitive but that option doesn't exist for those u35 (how can 35 be vet - goodness me!). So unless a solution is found we will keep losing those people...

At one point (several years back) there was talk of doing away with the VET class (mainly from those who didn't understand that difference between Vet and Master)!

[James Hastings]

I couldn't agree more Dave.

As a div 2 paddler of mature years that has over 20 years of river running experience at grade 3, 4, 4+ and even bits of 5, the div 2 calendar of races last year was pathetic in terms of white water content and meant that I reduced the number of races I entered to only about 60% of the previous year.

2016 is marginally better with the inclusion of a race at HPP and a double on the Lee Valley Legacy, but it's still a calendar with little white water content. When I started slalom, there were div 3s on the Graveyard section of the Tryweryn, but since those days there seems to have been an almost continuous downgrading of white water content below div 1. I seriously considered not racing at all last season.

What this has done, apart from reduce my participation in terms of entries, is to reduce my overall interest in the sport, and when calls go out, for example, for volunteers for internationals at Lee Valley (a site that I use regularly and is only 30 minutes drive from me), my attitude now is why should I bother as the 'powers that be' seem to have little interest in paddlers below div 1 unless they are youngsters picked up on one of the training regimes.

If the issue is the cost of decent water, then I for one would be prepared to pay an enhanced entry fee for the opportunity to race on decent water.

Before anyone says why don't you paddle up/put in judges entries/turn vet, in the case of paddle up, given the current situation I'm unlikely to get an entry and I'm unlikely to be fast enough to pick up any points, judges entries are fine if you're a young gun working your way up the divisions, but I'm 56 and have a lot more calls on my time besides slalom, and the vets leagues are too small to be worthwhile (plus the fact that as I'm in div 2 I would only be able to turn vet on 2/3 courses).

[JimW]

Firstly - my apologies to organisers I emailed last year, I got ranked quite late on and for almost every event I emailed first to check there were still places available before sending my entries off. And thanks to all of you for responding - as I recall I emailed very late about adding a K1 entry for West Tanfield as I only found out a few days before that my boat was ready to be picked up, and Ian accepted me as a pay on the day entry. Also thanks to Les for getting my bib to me in time for that!

Selection by ranking - I think others have covered it, it probably won't affect me, but I can see that there is a possibility for low ranked paddlers to find that they never get entries accepted, and therefore is very bad. Also why should the top paddlers have extra priority to enter at the last minute and take precedence over others who were more organised?

Selection by date received - this is probably most fair but will always make some work for organisers. Note that most mail seems to arrive unfranked these days so it would be as well to invest in a date stamp and stamp envelopes as they arrive, and/or store them in order. The policy not to open envelopes (or not to process if you run multiple events and need to open to find out which event they are for) until a set date seems to be the most sensible. Does this have to be a written rule, can organisers simply do this at present, just date envelopes on arrival and then start opening at whetever interval ahead of the event they need to in order to process them in time?
If an organiser goes on holiday and comes back to 2 weeks worth of entries, does it matter if they accurately know which order they arrived in? Most competitors are not going to know whether they sent their entry before or after another competitor, and even if they know that they have no way of telling if one envelope spent longer in the postal system than another - be as fair as you have time to be, pick up the pile, turn it over and assume the letters are now in correct date order.

I think as Dee, Kelso and others have already identified, online entry and payment is the future.
Online booking could be opened at staggered intervals if we want, maybe just for events that usually sell out giving others more chance to fill up?
Organisers won't have to deal with envelopes and cheques,although they may need to print cards, or run cardless.
Personally I don't see a problem with allowing for online entries and payment only - plenty of events run this way to no apparent detriment. Until I started Slalom my chequebook hadn't been used for about 2 years since every club I'm involved with has switched to online payment. Are there really people who have zero internet access and/or no way of paying online?
Crucially an online system could display the number of places left, and as soon as you submit you will see the counter decrease, and if the system is like the one Dee trialled you will be able to see your name on the start list right away - that should cut a lot of the email queries.
It would be great if it were possible to arrange a single booking site for all events, this would probably take some development, do we have people that can do this?

I'm impressed by the amount of infrastructure slalom already has that has been created and maintained by volunteers, the postal entry system might be getting a little dated, but it is generally sound and known to work, so don't rush to replace it until the replacement is properly tested.

[Seedy Paddler]

Really this is a subject for Organiser discretion. Add a line to the yearbook Application form for Organiser to set an open for entries date, leave the organiser to establish that date relative to other events and commitments and a desire to avoid losing the dining room table to cards for half a year. Endorse the premise that Organiser are entitled (at their own discretion) to scrap any and all entries received prior to the Opening date.

Initial entries are defined in the published rules and guidance on host entries, followed by Paddle ups and promotes. If over subscribed leave to Organiser discretion on priority and late acceptance. After all if I know or am made aware of offers to support with judging, safety, catering etc. over the period of the race, why shouldn't I reward with an entry and help secure the event for all. Paddle ups that are not gaining promotion scores in their own division are unlikely to core PU points, hence by giving priority to those that can it can assist in moving on the better paddlers leaving those in the division with more opportunity to score at their own level. If you want experience then use Judges entries support the organiser and save money and angst.

I would also suggest that as Organisers and Coaches we need to urge some caution. Despite Events being full some months prior to race date, races in August/September/October were still finalising start lists come the day and confirming paddle-ups. So they were not really full? Already I have seen several notes, texts and emails indicating that events in July/August are 30-50% full so get your entries in. I believe that this exacerbates the problem, it is forcing the issue rather than allowing it to work out. 2015 demonstrated that many early entries were subsequently withdrawn.

PS Postal systems work fine for me, don't do Internet Banking as I get far too many emails telling me my account needs intervention all well dressed up with Bank Logos and masks to make them look the real thing. BACS costs more money than a postage stamp so I will continue my ploy to retain the cheque book by using the damned thing...

[Dee]

Really this is a subject for Organiser discretion. Add a line to the yearbook Application form for Organiser to set an open for entries date, leave the organiser to establish that date relative to other events and commitments and a desire to avoid losing the dining room table to cards for half a year. Endorse the premise that Organiser are entitled (at their own discretion) to scrap any and all entries received prior to the Opening date. ...

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this as it could be confusing for paddlers if they don't know whether or not an early entry will be scrapped. Perhaps make the open date subject to organiser's discretion but if there is an open date then scrap all earlier entries