Tully Paddle Ups - Second Class Paddlers...

[Seedy Paddler]

Noted statement published for Grandtully Prem Race, Paddle Ups accepted but must undertake a Judging Stint! On what basis ? This is totally unfair and unjustifiable, there may be a lack of Judges for the event but then all entrants should be expected to support the event with a potential judging stint. Paddle Ups pay the same entry fees, same travel and accommodation costs and the result maybe just as important to them. Remember for a Paddle Up to benefit they must beat at least 40% of the Host Ranked Paddlers to get the points and repeat that on several occasions or with top 5 finishes in their own division to gain promotion.

If Entry was just for experience on the course/water then I would be recommending they paddle as Judges - support the event and get a free run for experience. Where paddlers have ranking status that places them in contention to be racing in the higher division the pressure is actually greater than on those already ranked. So proper preparation is even more important.

Agree that the Rules allow for paddlers to support Judging but this should be on a fair and equitable basis. The announcement for Grandtully is neither fair nor equitable

That said it does rather guide my plans for the weekend...

[JimW]

Paddle Ups and late entries will be required to judge unless we have more judging volunteers on the day. Paddle Ups will have places confirmed by the 26th of February and will be allocated in order of receipt.

When I spoke to Calum last weekend (I'm not qualified to judge but will help out on the safety team) he said he had received enough offers to judge now, so the statement shouldn't alter your plans for the weekend, and unless some volunteers drop out I would assume it is effectively withdrawn.

So which method achieved getting volunteers, the threat above, or the plea for judges through scottish slalom comms? Or did it require both?

[Seedy Paddler]

The likely order of classes on both days will be: judges, P/1 Vet, C2, C1W, K1M, K1W, C1M
All paddle-ups listed are confirmed for the day.
Currently all paddle-ups have a judging stint. Please check in with control before racing begins.

I suspect neither judging by the above rather the coercion of Paddle Ups, no problems with a requirement for paddlers to assist but it should be on a fair and equitable basis.

[JimW]

i.e. draw cards out of a hat?

We used to run kite buggy races with no helpers at all; sailing master, scorer, and when necessary marshalls were all drawn out of a hat for each race.
Mind you, that got complicated, anyone drawn to officiate got their seasonal average for the races they officiated, but to avoid tactical volunteering, anyone volunteering got fleet +1 the same as a registered DNF.
Fortunately some people retired from racing and became full time sailing masters and scorers.

At least in slalom you can't judge your own class so actually get to race, although it might be necessary to draw cards by class to ensure an even spread.

[BaldockBabe]

I think this is a mountain out of a molehill situation.

The rules allow for the organisers to require paddlers to assist. How they determine who those paddlers are is up to them (provided it is not discriminatory). The Welsh require the Welsh paddlers and parents to be first in line for volunteering, the Scots parents and paddlers are already in the line for the Tully events for lots of other roles (I am on the mailing list so know how much they are required to assist). Is selection by nationality any fairer or more equitable than selection by paddle up? When I ran events I did it in order of receipt of entries so the last to enter were the first to judge - however, with issues with events filling up quickly that would probably aggravate the situation now and again is that fairer or more equitable?

Organisers have enough on their plates without worrying whether people will be offended by the way they select judges.

In an ideal world people would volunteer to assist in the sport they or their family members benefit from so much so that none of us have to spend a disproportionate amount of our time helping the events to run.

Sorry, but this is a big bugbear of mine. I actually gave up the competitive side of the sport because the time I spent volunteering meant that I never got to do a practice run, walk the course etc so competing became a very expensive non-event for me. I therefore have little sympathy for those who complain about having to spend an hour or so of their weekend sitting on the riverbank with a clip board and pen.

*This is not a personal attack in any way, just a bugbear and I note that most of us on this forum contribute a lot to the sport so do not want this to be taken in the wrong way.

[Dee]

I agree organisers have to have some way of selecting judges as there never seem to be many volunteers. I think many people just don't understand how many "volunteers" you need to run a slalom. I start with 'local' paddlers but that isn't enough.

I am baffled as to why more parents don't volunteer. They are there anyway after all. I don't expect all parents to volunteer at all races but some don't volunteer at any races. And of course the children learn from the parents.

[CeeBee]

I would hope that your contribution putting up the bearers for a day would be taken as volunteering in support of the race and that no judging would be required on the actual weekend.

Having been involved in organising races for many years, it is always the same people and families you rely on to help. Some people only take from the sport and will do anything to avoid ever helping. Some people don't feel confident enough to help but with a little training and support they soon get the hang of it.

Clubs running events make little from events after you have deducted the admin fees, timing fee, judging fee and prizes. All the time by the club to run the event is given for free. So, race entrants can't say why should I help as I have already paid to race. If they had truly paid to race, the entry fee would be so much higher.

There needs to be a culture that all those who benefit from the sport also contribute to the sport. This can be in many ways such as coaching support at events or judging. Some paddlers will claim that helping at a race interferes with their race preparation. This may well be so but there are always judging stints after their second runs have finished that they could help out with for half an hour. And if they can't help at their own ranking race, then they need to be willing to help at another less important race.


Maybe we need to incentivise paddlers and families to help by earning points for helping which can earn benefits e.g. priority entry to races or differentiated pricing for events based on whether you and your family help for 1 hour or don't help. This wouldn't apply at the lower level but could kick in at Division 1 and Premier.

[boatmum]

Hmm

Not sure I agree - why would you financially penalise possibly less affluent families?!? So if you can afford it you dont have to help but if you cant afford it then you do - sounds wrong to me.

I am now retired from judging but when I very first started out as a paddler parent and went along to races - I was never ever asked or approached to help and I mean never! I was possibly more confident than some parents might be so I asked if I could be of any help. So believing that most people will rock up at races and ask I think is a false premise

My own experience has always been if people are asked then they respond. You could argue that you shouldn't have to ask but that stance never works. Penalising and fining in my experience doesn't work and honestly how are you going to police it? Also incentivising? I think most organisers would say they have enough admin to do without adding to it.

I can only speak for Div 1 and Prem races now but I don't see hoards of paddlers running off without helping - some of course, but when asked I have on the whole seen paddlers responding positively to requests. Also I would have thought that it was the lower divisions where there are no section judges or national timings teams who need the most help. Where paddlers have to travel some distance helping out after the race is always going to be an issue - especially if you have a 8 / 9 hour drive in front of you.

[CeeBee]

I hadn't thought of it like that and allowing those who can afford to pay more to avoid helping is not a good message to send out.

I have organised various events over the year and whilst some people such as yourself always helped out, a fair few of the actual paddlers themselves have used a wide variety of excuses over the years to avoid helping.

What I was tying to do was find a way so that the workload is shared. At premier (and Div 1 events) events, you would prefer not to use the prem paddlers to help during the day with the race so they can focus on their own race. The expectation/hope was then that these paddlers helped at one of the lower Division events that their club or another club was running but the problem is they often don't turn up as they don't see anything in it for them. So, you end up helping at the prem so they don't need to and then helping at the Div 3/4 because they don't want to.

Even the most persuasive volunteer organiser I know finds they have to make repeated requests through Scottish Slalom Comms to try to get enough volunteers who will commit to helping run races.

[Slapdash Sal]

This sounds as though this could be a valid reason for abolishing paddle-ups? We might then have enough judges at all the events.

[Dee]

This sounds as though this could be a valid reason for abolishing paddle-ups? We might then have enough judges at all the events.

I don't think that follows. If it did then the div 1 races that are full would be inundated by div 2s wanting to judge.

Dee

[BaldockBabe]

I At premier (and Div 1 events) events, you would prefer not to use the prem paddlers to help during the day with the race so they can focus on their own races.

Why should the Prem paddlers be an exception? I certainly did not exempt them from judging when I ran events. Every paddlers race is important to them Prem to Div 4. I can see an argument at selection events but at selection events the paddlers are never asked to judge as the section judges cover those events.

[CeeBee]

I wasn't implying that racing below Prem/Div 1 was less important.

However, the higher the entry fee , the higher the expectation of the event from the paddler e.g. running to time, timing with beams, Section judges

However, I do believe that once you reach premier and Div 1 you have been involved in the sport for long enough that you have benefitted through out your progression from Div 4 to the top from volunteers and so it is not unreasonable that you should start giving some time back.

This needs to be actively encouraged so the the paddlers are nudged by their coaches to help and training days and camps are not organised to clash with events the paddlers would reasonably be expected to help at.

[davebrads]

This sounds as though this could be a valid reason for abolishing paddle-ups? We might then have enough judges at all the events.

I don't think that follows. If it did then the div 1 races that are full would be inundated by div 2s wanting to judge.

Dee

This needs to be actively encouraged so the the paddlers are nudged by their coaches to help and training days and camps are not organised to clash with events the paddlers would reasonably be expected to help at.

If those coaches who are currently so active in encouraging their paddlers to paddle up could be relied on to encourage them to judge instead then Sal's statement might hold true.

The reason given for introducing paddle ups was to introduce another pathway to promotion. Instead it is almost exclusively beings used as a way to gain additional race experience at the expense of volunteering to judge leaving the unfortunate organisers with yet another headache to deal with. Consequently I think it is only reasonable to get the paddle-ups to judge, or perhaps it is better abolish them altogether

[djberriman]

Fix 2 problems in one.

Scrap paddle ups, allow judges (who have to do the judging) to earn portable points.

Watch for the rush of volunteers for judging slots!