Proposed rule change.

[Mike Mitchell]

Division 1 is to big. If everyone is going to enter, then most events haven't the water time.
So entries are turned away and anyone that gets promoted hasn't a fair chance.
If we demote a large percentage of Div 1 to Div 2 and then some Dive 2 to 3 this could sort the problem out, but its already beed indicated that some will give up if demoted.
But if paddlers can't get entries in the first place then they are likely to give up and they could be better paddlers.
If you are in Div 1 at the Start of the season then you can send all your entries in in February and thats it sorted.
If you are in Div 2 at the beginning of the season and get promoted in say June, then that could be season over, even if you predicted this and sent in Paddle Up entries, as these are not guaranteed, if the event is full of divisional entries the PU is last on the list.
Its quite possible for a good up and coming C1 to be in div 3 at the beginning of the year and Div1 at the end, if they can get entries.
So there in no way a promoted paddler can be garnered of a entries in the division above there ranking and these are the future of the sport. The ones we need to look after.
I expect there will be paddlers promoted at this weekends Llandysul and then not be able to enter Chapel Falls in Two weeks time.

Proposal.
A promoted paddler has Two weeks after promotion to enter any race in there new division and be guaranteed an entry.

[davebrads]

How do you propose to handle the extra entries? Are the newly promoted paddlers going to have precedence over paddlers already in the division, so that for every promoted paddler gaining an entry someone else is losing their place? Or are you suggesting that the extra entries are taken on top of the race limit? Apart from my own view that I don't want to attend or organise races that take much more than 8 hours to run, there are other time constraints on many races due to limited water time or limited hours of daylight, especially towards the end of the season when there could be quite a number of promotees wanting entries.

[stevepearson]

If you are in Div 1 at the Start of the season then you can send all your entries in in February and thats it sorted.
.

I'm sure a lot of Div 1 paddlers do what you say above - but anyone can enter as paddle up at start of season - so if you anticipate getting promoted mid season then enter as paddle up, then when your promoted you entry must be counted as received in Feb (as above) and in that division.

That said - it's going to do is add workload to organizers & add to the panic entry you suggest above.

I'm sure if people were charged a fee to withdraw their entry then there may be space ahead of each race & it would be worthwhile......but not really though this through either

[davebrads]

I'm sure a lot of Div 1 paddlers do what you say above - but anyone can enter as paddle up at start of season - so if you anticipate getting promoted mid season then enter as paddle up, then when your promoted you entry must be counted as received in Feb (as above) and in that division.

I haven't seen anything in the rules that says an organiser has to count the entry as being received on the date of the paddle up entries. It might be why I received so many paddle up entries in February though, even though there was little chance of any of them getting onto the start list.

[Dee]

Note that a in another thread a recently promoted paddler has stated that she has got an entry in all but one div one race, so perhaps the situation is far from as bad as it seems.

Either way I don't believe that the proposed rule will work. It would mean organisers reserving places on a just-in-case basis

[lesf]

The problem is probably one that will increase as the season goes on though - as more people get promoted there are more people able to enter the race. So at the at the moment only 14 have been promoted from Div 2 to Div 1 - that will be a lot more later in the season.
And yes there's a risk that those promoted will disappear if they can't get an entry in their new division, so we need to look at this.

Would it really add that many people to a start list? In reality there could be a handful of people from each of the two preceding weekends that this would apply to, and they may not all take advantage of this option. If effect, an organiser could simple knock say 10 place off their entry limit and hold these back for those promoted in the preceding two weeks (there'd need to be some deadline by which they claim it - emailing the organiser by the Tuesday/Wednesday before the race?) - these could be allocated to new the promotes or to others on the waiting list if they are not claimed by promotes

Of course this would only give them entry to events in the two weeks after their promotion, so a maximum of 4 races in their new division - and then still not be able to get an entry in the races for the rest of the season, so while they do get to race in their new division it only delays the real problem by a couple of weeks. For Example: I'm promoted out of Div 2 at Llandysul this weekend which enables me to get an entry at Chapel Falls Div 1 two weeks later - but I still may not get an entry from early June onward! Of course as a Div 1 they may be more likely to get a Paddle Up entry at a Prem event.

So the real problem remains capacity at events. The way we solve that in the lower divisions is to have more than 1 event happening on the same weekend - perhaps we should be looking at that in Div 1 too! Having 2 Div 1's at opposite ends of the country on a weekend would give enough capacity! Yes we'd need judges, timing people etc to run them, but that's not insurmountable (every lower division event manages it when there are multiple events elsewhere). We could at least trial this?

[davebrads]

Of course this would only give them entry to events in the two weeks after their promotion, so a maximum of 4 races in their new division - and then still not be able to get an entry in the races for the rest of the season, so while they do get to race in their new division it only delays the real problem by a couple of weeks.

That's not the way I understood it - I read it that they had two weeks in order to enter as many races as they wanted, i.e. every race up to the end of the season.

[JimW]

Of course this would only give them entry to events in the two weeks after their promotion, so a maximum of 4 races in their new division - and then still not be able to get an entry in the races for the rest of the season, so while they do get to race in their new division it only delays the real problem by a couple of weeks.

That's not the way I understood it - I read it that they had two weeks in order to enter as many races as they wanted, i.e. every race up to the end of the season.

That's why I didn't respond yesterday, after thinking through similarly to Les, I re-read Mikes suggestion and came up with the same interpretation as Dave so scrapped my thoughts and haven't got around to revisiting them yet.

Certainly with-holding places out of the normal limit seems to be the only way to make it work for either interpretation, my concern with that would be the possibility of holding back too many places and then ending up with the event running not quite full when there were other competitors who would have raced. I understand that waiting lists are operated, but also that many people on a waiting list end up not taking a place at short notice because they were unable to plan accommodation etc.

Assuming Mike intended further discussion to make the idea workable and iron out misunderstandings:
- The biggest problem I can see is that it puts an extra burden on whomever is taking entries, to check the promotion dates for the people who are claiming the extra places - fortunately this is quite easy using the ranking lists on this website, but it will still require them to find the paddler in the list and click their name to see which the last race in their old division was, and then work out if the entry was received within 2 weeks (or their event is within 2 weeks, depending on what Mike actually meant). Suddenly we have a bunch of extra steps and possibility for human error.
- For the paddler, having a 2 week window in which to apply for all the remaining events that year is clearly a much better deal than getting definite entry to any events in the next 2 weeks.
- The problem is that as noted, as the season goes on there will be more promotees asking for the extra places and eventually demand will likely outstrip supply so it is still not a guaranteed entry, just a decent chance, which reduces the later in the season you get promotion.

I think it is good to be discussing all these possibilities, and any others than anyone can come up with no matter how leftfield they seem....

[JimW]

It also strikes me that despite assertations that div1 events will fill early, not all have.

There were several paddle ups at Tully, and I only see notices declaring 3 out of the remaining 8 events full?

[Mike Mitchell]

My proposal was that a promoted paddler has two weeks from promotion to enter all the remaining Races in that Division with a guaranteed place.
So if the event is not full then there is no problem.
When an event becomes full then the last entries received are marked provisional P1 onwards.
These get taken off if a promoted paddler applys for the entry.
Sorry its a hard life but we need to look after the up and coming paddlers and get rid of the hangers on like me.

This still need debating and is only a draft proposal.

[paddlerparent]

I still say increase capacity & don't restrict demand.

Or if you want to ensure that paddle ups get entries then accept entries in order of receipt not by that division

Or reserve say 10% of enteries at every race for paddle up entries as standard, these reserved enteries are to people NOT in the race division at the start of the season


But be clear with the rules and consistant with the approach - else people will drop out as it becomes unfair !

[321go]

Or alternately only those top ten ranked paddler , not bin numbers, are allowed to apply for paddle up. If you are in the top ten then you will be 'knocking on the door' of promotion. Anyone outside the top ten can then apply for a run as an official.

[the_c1_fish]

I don't personally think that the answer to this question it to allow a promoted paddler two weeks after their promotion to enter any race in their new division and be guaranteed an entry. As someone who has taken entries for the Washburn Division 1 races for the past 4 season I cannot understand how anyone can expect organisers to account for paddlers which might get promoted 2 weeks before their event.
I also do not see what gives newly promoted paddlers more importance over paddlers that have been ranked in that division for the full season. For this years washburn I received around 250 entries and the event reached its capacity of 150 entries in mid February, despite the event being in mid July. Any organiser cannot reserve places for paddlers just incase

In fact I don't think the main issue or question is that Division 1 is to big. I feel that the actual issue is that Div 1 races are filling up very quick and some paddlers are struggling to get entries. I personally feel that the answer to this is to have more division 1 races. If races are filling up that's good. If paddlers can't get entries that means we need more races for the paddlers to enter.

Also if newly promoted paddlers cannot get ranking entries, why not enter as an official. Yes you wont get the points but when you are a newly promoted paddler what use are points apart from next year's bib number. If you enter as an official you still get the water and race experience, it doesn't cost you to enter and all you need to do is a couple of judging stints and you will also be helping out the organisers by doing this judging.

[Mike Mitchell]

So as we now mention Washburn Div 1 from Last weekend, I would like to point out the following.

I know a padder that got promoted to Div 1 in April and sent an entry in for Washburn Two days after promotion.
The paddler also emailed the week of the event to see the likelihood of getting an entry and was told it was full in February.
I have Two other paddlers in Wyedean CC that got promoter before the end of June.

At the actual event I think every Div 1 paddler that turned up without an entry got one on the day as there was so manny cancellations and promotions.

My club paddlers were not prepared to travel the 5 Hours to the event on the chance of getting a late entry.
So fine if you live local or are prepared to Judge all weekend.

So at it stands I believe nearly all the Div1 paddlers will send all there entries in next February for the hole season and then decide at a latter date if they are actually going to the event, as you can get a refund if you withdraw you entry.
If you are an up and coming Div2 paddle thats trained all winter and get promoted at the start of the season. Bad luck you probably won't get entries to all the events, unless your club is running the event. [Thats not all organisers]

On a good not and something to look at Shepperton Dic1/2 at the start of the season had an online reserve list so every paddler without an entry new exactly what there chances were of getting an entry and no one jumped the list. In fact there is a lot to be take from the way Shepperton did the whole entry system on line.

Mitch

[djberriman]

Please remember organisers have a seriously hard time processing all those entries, dealing with cheques which may expire and of course people getting promoted, cancelling for various reasons etc. Having just organised Howsham 2/3/4 it is not an easy task, no software is provided to manage entries which deals with all the issues invloved and it is very time consuming for the volunteer involved. I'd guess 75-80% of the cards I received were incorrectly completed and every organiser I've spoken to says the same, a simple few second job becomes a time consuming one. We do not want people travelling on spec as we'd hate to say we are full when you arrive and unfortunately yes there are last minute changes which means some who happen to be there might get an entry on the day. The alternative would be just to say no to everyone. Judges entries can be accepted well in advance, indeed there was frequent requests for people to judge at Washburn. Most events struggle with judging and are happy to receive entries in advance.

It's not a perfect system but organisers do their best and there are very few who are willing to do the job. There are some who have given up due to the amount of negative feedback received.

I'd love to use the online system but it's in it's infancy and unfortunately our event is often subject to a number of constraints which may mean its cancelled, it's only happened once but the though of refunding all those payments is not something I wish to deal with. It will be something I will review each year.

I'd suggest if you feel there are things wrong you put forward some rule changes such as you can't enter until say x months before an event, payments are not refunded after a certain date, newly promoted paddlers can race as judges and earn divisional points etc.

I'm sorry if paddlers are disappointed but there are many factors influencing entry levels and entry limits. Washburn for instance has lost at least a couple of hours of water time which makes it very hard for everyone concerned to run the event. Other venues have time constraints, cost constraints, release issues, water level issues all of which have meant there are less events. We all do our very best to try and put the paddler first and value the contributions of all our volunteers.

If you have ever been an organiser you will know how much time, dedication and stress are involved for weeks before, on the weekend and for days after often with little thanks.

Finally any club can organise an event so feel free to get your event request in before 1st August. We'd be happy to see other volunteers organising more events.