6.13 Simplification of the Paddle Up Rules

[Canadian Paddler]

This proposal will be withdrawn if the Portable Points proposal stands, and will need modification to reflect the motion above if that stands.
The rules have been interpreted in different ways, and have been described as wordy. It is proposed to simplify them as follows:

B3.3 Accelerated Promotion
B3.3.1 “Paddle Up”
A ranked competitor may enter competitions designated for the next division up (referred to below as the Host division). Provided an event is quorate, a competitor “paddling up” achieving a result better than a host division paddler scoring more than 400 points has reached the ‘paddle up standard’.
In the case of a multi-division competition (e.g. Div 1/2 or Div 2/3) where the courses are identical all paddlers in the lower division are considered ‘paddling up’ in the higher division..
B3.3.2 “Paddle Up” Participation Conditions
The entry fee payable will be the same as for competitors in the host division.
Points will be calculated for the Host division as though the “paddling up” competitors were not present. ‘Paddlers up’ will not receive points and will be marked “NR” on the results sheets.
If the event limit is reachedapplied, priority of entry shall be as follows:
a) Up to the priority entry deadline: Host division paddlers, then “paddlers up”, in order of receipt of entries.
b) After the priority entry deadline up to entry cut-off: eligible entries in order of receipt of entries.
Note: the priority entry deadline is the Friday four weeks before the competition.

[JimW]

In the case of a multi-division competition (e.g. Div 1/2 or Div 2/3) where the courses are identical all paddlers in the lower division are considered ‘paddling up’ in the higher division..
B3.3.2 “Paddle Up” Participation Conditions
The entry fee payable will be the same as for competitors in the host division.
Points will be calculated for the Host division as though the “paddling up” competitors were not present. ‘Paddlers up’ will not receive points and will be marked “NR” on the results sheets.

I understand the intention to remove confusion, but I think we have new ambiguity here?

If (when the courses are identical) all paddlers in the lower division are considered 'paddling up' does that mean that all have to pay the higher division fee, and that no paddlers in the lower division will receive points, just NR or PV as appropriate?

I am quite sure this is not the intention, but I think it is correct reading of the rule?
Presumably the intention is to score the lower division normally, and any paddlers who have a better score than the 400 point paddler in the higher division are awarded PV instead of the points they would have got? Which I think is what the wordy rule says at present.

[Canadian Paddler]

I so what you mean. That was not The Intent. More that at a div 2/3 those entering div 3 and paying div 3 fees can claim a paddle up if they beat someone getting 400 points. But can't claim both div 3 points and paddle up. As happens now.
Might have to think again and offer an amendment if I can be .ore bullet proof

[Nick Penfold]

But can't claim both div 3 points and paddle up. As happens now.

No, it doesn't. Where a paddler in (say) Div 3 has beaten 40% of the Div 2 paddlers in the same class, I inspect the results and manually upgrade the paddler's points to 1000 before loading them. This makes no difference at all if the paddler is the winner, or increases the points if he/she was in, say, second or third place in Div 3. But you only get one set of points for any event.

It may be possible to read the rules to allow some sort of double counting, but it isn't sensible.

[Canadian Paddler]

Bad tryping,

The intend was keep the current posiiton where paddlers in the lower division enter that division and paying the entry fee for that division, either scoring points OR getting a paddle up.

Must take more time thinking before tryping

[Nick Penfold]

It's much simpler if you just think of a successful paddle up as 1000 points, superseding whatever points were earned in the Div 3 race. That's how it's managed.

[JimW]

It's much simpler if you just think of a successful paddle up as 1000 points, superseding whatever points were earned in the Div 3 race. That's how it's managed.

And I presume that's how it will be managed with PP, any lower division paddler that manages to earn points from the higher division will have their own division points superseded by them, without adjusting the points calculation for either division?

[Nick Penfold]

Yes, that's how I see it.

[Canadian Paddler]

To Quote fron the rules document that accompanied the PP motion:

• There is no paddle up option for Division 3 at a Division 2/3 Competition. A Division 3 paddler beating paddlers in Division 2 will be awarded only the points earned against other Division 3 paddlers, and a Division 3 cannot enter the Division 2 race as a paddle up competitor.

So my reading is "No that is not how it will work." If there is a division 2/3 event you paddle in your division, no paddle up available.

BUT be worth checking the intent matches these words at the ACM.

[Nick Penfold]

Yes, correct: sorry, my first response didn't take account of that.

[CeeBee]

You could argue the points either way but I think this would over complicate the management of points.

So for simplicity for organisers and paddlers and ease of management, if a paddler is racing in a Division 3 race at a Div 2/3, the Division 3 paddler will only get points compared to their own Division.

It doesn't matter if they would have got more or less points if they had raced in Division 2 as this option was not open to them.

To me, the main purpose of portable points is to enable paddlers to be eligible to enter more races to give them more choice over which events they attend i.e. a Div 2 paddler used to be able to only enter Div 2/3 and Div 2 races but can now enter Div 2/3 races, Div 2 races and Div 1 races if they so wish.

At a Div 2 only race, we needed a way of calculating points for Div 3 paddle ups so they are compared and earn points based on where they would have finished. At a Div 2/3 race, this comparison is not required as they will get points by comparing them to their own division.

[JimW]

Ah right, I must have missed that clause. So much to take in!

[James Hastings]

Actually CeeBee until recently div 2 paddlers were also able to 'paddle up' at division 1/2 races - at Tully, Tees Barrage, Abbey Rapids, Washburn, HPP, The Tryweryn, to name just a few - until the powers that be decided to discontinue multi-divisional races above 2/3s. There were also a number of Prem/1 races to allow aspiring div 1 paddlers try their luck out on Prem courses.

Thus portable points seems to me just a confusing, complicated and messy way of reintroducing multi-division races to a certain extent. If you are a believer in the divisional system then I would suggest it would be a much simpler operation to reinstate proper multi-divisional races at Prem/1 and 1/2 level, with the added bonus of providing some decent water for div 2s to paddle on.

I suspect that one of the arguments that would be trotted out against a return to multi-divisional races would be 'but races were getting full up and thus paddlers were having to be turned away'. In that case how is portable points going to solve the problem?

James

[CeeBee]

Division 2 paddlers didn't paddle up at Div 1/2 races, they competed as Division 2 in their own right.

I am for retaining Div 1/2 races as they gave Div 2s invaluable race experience alongside Division 1. This was changed a couple of years ago independently of portable points because of over subscribed races. I did wonder whether you could be selective and allow some Div 2 categories to run alongside a Division 1 e.g. K1W only. However, at least portable points is will allow some Div 2s to paddle up where there is space and earn points.

There are still Prem and Div 1 races but they are run on different days. You cannot run a full Division 1 and a full Prem on the same day. Personally, I prefer double Div1s or double Prems due to the commitment and cost required to travel to these races.

And you are right, this proposal does not address oversubscribed races and is not intended to do so. There has been much chat on how to deal with oversubscribed races but no one has put any motions forward.

[Canadian Paddler]

Point of order, the 'powers that be' did not and do not discourage div 1/2 events.

Very few applied for such races - Shepperton being an exception. So if you want div 1/2 get an organsier to run one. But be aware that the size of Div 1 now means that organisers can fill a race just with div 1 paddlers, and paddle up, all paying div 1 fees, so events are more viable as div 1 (with paddle up) than as a div 1/2.

If you want div 2 on bigger water get a club to apply for the additional funding that was available, but no one asked for it.