Online Entries - The Future - Have your Say?

[Dee]

We're also using the online entry system for our double Div 2 on July 1/2.
Jez

Ummm! Are you sure about that one? It was initiated, but setup was never completed, so I don't believe this is currently true!

[Canadian Paddler]

We'd like to use online entries for 2018 for all the slaloms we run. I did make inquires as to whether we could take out insurance for financial loss, but didn't get anywhere. A better solution might be for GB canoeing to underwrite the online system for all events - the risk appears small and the potential loss would be limited to 4 weeks of event entry money held by Stripe (~£30K?) - which is small compared to GB canoeing's income. Do people think this is a good idea? If yes, what would be the best route to make such a request to GB canoeing?

Just checking who you mean by GB canoeing

• BC Slalom Committee - This is not a small amount relative to the income of BC committee, if that is what is meant, then it could go on teh agenda of the next meeting if the repsonse is quick
• Home Fedearation Slalom Committees - This would probably wupe out the Fedearyion committees as well
• British Canoing Performance (was GB Performance a while ago) - their money is ring fenced for Olympic and (to a lesser extent) Worlds medals (I believe)
• British Canoeing as a whole?

[Patrick O'Hara]

Firstly as a parent of a Div1 paddler, I’ve found the online entry system a big step forward, it has really made the process of my son spending my money on entry fees very easy (perhaps too easy!).

This year I’ve also pick-up the task of dealing with entries for the two Div 2/3/4 events to be held at Cardington. Consideration was given to using the online entry system but we chickened out mainly due to a few areas where support for non Prem/Div 1 events could be enhanced. It would be great to see enhancements to support Div 2, 3 and 4 events implemented ahead of the 2018 season if this is possible. The particular areas I think would be good to look at are below in priority order but those who were brave enough to bite the bullet and use it this year for lower division events may disagree or have come across others.

Card Printing – This was probably the single largest barrier to using online entries this year. I’ve seen Duncan’s post regarding a mail merge he has developed so perhaps that now solves this problem but a fully integrated solution would obviously be better.

Multi Class Discounts – We discussed this when you were kind enough to show me the system at Shepperton during the Div 1 earlier in the year and I understand there are significant challenges to overcome to support MCDs, but if they are to continue I think including a solution would be a massive benefit. Having said that my vote would be to scrape MCDs but I know this is an emotive subject for some. Of the entries I have received for Cardington so far and are eligible for MCD, 65% of them have not applied it!

Simply Slalom Integration – To be honest Simply Slalom is still a bit of a mystery to me as I’m currently working off an entries spread sheet and will transfer to Simply Slalom nearer the event. Having said that the easier it is to move from the entries system to the event running system the better so perhaps there are things that could be made easier in this area.

Div 4 Support – I know you have specifically exclude this as anyone can enter Div 4 and so they need to sign their life away before competing. I think there would be a benefit to including Div 4 in order to provide a total solution. Perhaps this could be done by including an automatic RTC for Div 4s so the formalities could be completed on the morning of the event.

Hope this helps.

Patrick

[Dee]

Firstly as a parent of a Div1 paddler, I’ve found the online entry system a big step forward, it has really made the process of my son spending my money on entry fees very easy (perhaps too easy!).

This year I’ve also pick-up the task of dealing with entries for the two Div 2/3/4 events to be held at Cardington. Consideration was given to using the online entry system but we chickened out mainly due to a few areas where support for non Prem/Div 1 events could be enhanced. It would be great to see enhancements to support Div 2, 3 and 4 events implemented ahead of the 2018 season if this is possible. The particular areas I think would be good to look at are below in priority order but those who were brave enough to bite the bullet and use it this year for lower division events may disagree or have come across others. .......

Thanks for your responses. Looking at them one at a time:

Card Printing – This was probably the single largest barrier to using online entries this year. I’ve seen Duncan’s post regarding a mail merge he has developed so perhaps that now solves this problem but a fully integrated solution would obviously be better.

I'll add to my list but printing from online systems is notoriously difficult and I may never get it to work reliably, so I'm never going to move it high up the list. At the moment, for example, if you print a start list (via ctrl+P) from Chrome/Firefox/Safari it prints reasonably well. Try it in IE or Edge and try as I might I can't get it to print more than the first page. What is more practical, perhaps, is Duncan's mail merge approach with an export of the data.

Multi Class Discounts – We discussed this when you were kind enough to show me the system at Shepperton during the Div 1 earlier in the year and I understand there are significant challenges to overcome to support MCDs, but if they are to continue I think including a solution would be a massive benefit. Having said that my vote would be to scrape MCDs but I know this is an emotive subject for some. Of the entries I have received for Cardington so far and are eligible for MCD, 65% of them have not applied it!

My biggest issue with MCDs is the complications associated with entries being made and cancelled at different times. Although this is an edge case and will happen rarely, it does need consideration so as not to "break" the system. We would also need to limit discounts to entries made by the same user. (So if MrSmith@example.com enters Johnny into K1M and MrsSmith@example.com enters Johnny into C1M no discount would be given). Discounts can also only be applied to ranking entries as these are the only we have of knowing that it's the same paddler. There are also issues with C2 entries. Given these limitations MCDs could potentially be incorporated next year, but I do dread this one, as I have a feeling it's going to result in a lot of questions, bugs, and issues.

Out of interest what do you do with that 65% - do you do a refund on the day? (if so, how does this differ from refunding from online payments?)
Would your club put forward a motion to abolish MCDs? (I agree that they should be scrapped; they are a nightmare to administer (whether online or not) and I honestly do not believe they achieve their purpose).

Simply Slalom Integration – To be honest Simply Slalom is still a bit of a mystery to me as I’m currently working off an entries spread sheet and will transfer to Simply Slalom nearer the event. Having said that the easier it is to move from the entries system to the event running system the better so perhaps there are things that could be made easier in this area.

There will always be a degree of separation between online entry and scoring - online entry needs to use the internet whereas for many competitions on-site internet access isn't available.
Since you saw the system at Sheppy, there is now a button on the managed entries pages that exports the data into the correct format for a quick cut and paste to Simply Slalom. You just cut and paste each division/class. The plan, is to provide an export from the online system which can be uploaded to Simply Slalom at the press of a button. We did start work on this, but other things got in the way. I will add to list as a reminder

Div 4 Support – I know you have specifically exclude this as anyone can enter Div 4 and so they need to sign their life away before competing. I think there would be a benefit to including Div 4 in order to provide a total solution. Perhaps this could be done by including an automatic RTC for Div 4s so the formalities could be completed on the morning of the event.

Out of interest - how many Div 4 entries to you get in advance? We rarely get more than one!
What has been added is that organisers can now add postal div4 entries to the system, so that at least there is no need to maintain a separate list.

[Dee]

Would be useful to hear from other 2/3/4 organisers.

[Patrick O'Hara]

Thanks for the replies Dee. A few further comments and answers to your questions:

Card Printing – I agree that direct printing from a browser will never be successful, the approach I’ve seen work successfully is for the application to generate a PDF using JavaScript libraries such as jsPDF or pdfmake.

Multi Class Discounts – As taking the overpaid MCDs as a generous donation is probably not ethical I will be left with no choice but to bank the cheques, get a whole load of pound coins and deal with the refunds on the day when there are many other more important things to do. Having the online entry system eliminate this job would be a help.

Nick Taylor started a discussion thread about abolishing MCDs before last year’s ACM but there didn’t appear to be enough support for it to make putting it forward worthwhile, perhaps we’ll have another go this year.

Div 4 Support – You’re right we don’t get many Div 4 pre-entries unless the event is getting full, typically it’s probably less than 10. I think being able to enter Div 4s online would be particularly useful for families with paddlers in different classes and so allow them to do all their entries in the same way.

[Seedy Paddler]

Online Entries will always only be part of the system it is a tool it has uses and it has issues. There are a number of things I would like to see improved.

1/ I revert back to the ability to enter events when not part of the Ranking List. It may be difficult and it may be minority but there are definite times when it would be advantageous - New Promotees, Pan Celtic or Championship Races etc. I don't foresee the lying cheating gits you allude to earlier, rather an ability to place an entry subject to scrutiny and ultimate acceptance by the Organiser. it could even be flagged as a requirement to verify with Control or update prior to event. (PS Your opinion on whether I could or could not have sent entry in earlier is irrelevant as you have no idea what my situation is or was) the objective is to provide feedback if you don't want it fine but don't laud your tool when it is deficient.

2/ I too tend to work off a number of devices, including Company PCs that operate through pseudo servers etc. Hence I would endorse the ability to have log-in that I can transfer and use to place, check, amend or update entries, without having to request a login email.

3/ Need to improve the export, ability to link to simply slalom or provide spreadsheet, csv or similar files for organisers and provide a start sheet that can be printed. Not every site is blessed with good cellphone or wifi coverage. Printed paper works very well wherever I go.

4/ For lower division slaloms you will need a card export, I aint sitting copying out details to a card so someone can enter through a PC. So on-line entries for our slalom would be required to report to Control with a fully filled out card.

5/ MCD are part and parcel, not always well liked but need to be catered for.

6/Payment receipt, not sure how this works but you state that payment is not taken until 3 weeks prior to slalom. Is there an email to state payment taken or is it expected to turn up in your Credit Card statement. Also just a little concerned as I recently had one of my Credit Cards cancelled as it seemed to have developed a clone in darkest Eastern European Uber Drivers ( a place I have never been and a system I never intend to use). If I had placed entries with that card it would now be obsolete how does the system reconnect or do I require to re-log in and check entries and clarify card details?

[Dee]

Online Entries will always only be part of the system it is a tool it has uses and it has issues. There are a number of things I would like to see improved.

1/ I revert back to the ability to enter events when not part of the Ranking List. It may be difficult and it may be minority but there are definite times when it would be advantageous - New Promotees, Pan Celtic or Championship Races etc. I don't foresee the lying cheating gits you allude to earlier, rather an ability to place an entry subject to scrutiny and ultimate acceptance by the Organiser. it could even be flagged as a requirement to verify with Control or update prior to event. (PS Your opinion on whether I could or could not have sent entry in earlier is irrelevant as you have no idea what my situation is or was) the objective is to provide feedback if you don't want it fine but don't laud your tool when it is deficient.

2/ I too tend to work off a number of devices, including Company PCs that operate through pseudo servers etc. Hence I would endorse the ability to have log-in that I can transfer and use to place, check, amend or update entries, without having to request a login email.

3/ Need to improve the export, ability to link to simply slalom or provide spreadsheet, csv or similar files for organisers and provide a start sheet that can be printed. Not every site is blessed with good cellphone or wifi coverage. Printed paper works very well wherever I go.

4/ For lower division slaloms you will need a card export, I aint sitting copying out details to a card so someone can enter through a PC. So on-line entries for our slalom would be required to report to Control with a fully filled out card.

5/ MCD are part and parcel, not always well liked but need to be catered for.

6/Payment receipt, not sure how this works but you state that payment is not taken until 3 weeks prior to slalom. Is there an email to state payment taken or is it expected to turn up in your Credit Card statement. Also just a little concerned as I recently had one of my Credit Cards cancelled as it seemed to have developed a clone in darkest Eastern European Uber Drivers ( a place I have never been and a system I never intend to use). If I had placed entries with that card it would now be obsolete how does the system reconnect or do I require to re-log in and check entries and clarify card details?

1/ I'm not lauding the system, but i do not believe that this should be handled in the online system at this stage. Rome wasn't built in a day and I strongly believe that it is better to speed up the process of allocating ranking numbers rather than adding complicated work arounds to the online system.
2/ we will look at alternatives for logging in (and for improving the ability to stay logged in), but I'm just not promising anything.
3/ anything extra specific here? Organisers can easily export Entries and detail to spreadsheets. There is a download button for timing teams, download buttons for copying to simply slalom. Startlist can be printed in chrome, Firefox and safari (for some reason, in Edge an IE I can only get the first page to print I have spent several hours trying to work out why this is and a search on the internet shows that I'm not alone!). I'm struggling to think of anything else that we can export.
4/ I'm not denying that we need to print cards somehow (at least until all slaloms go cardless), but can it be through Duncan's idea of a mail merge or do you think it needs to be a one stop shop?
5/ MCD will as you say need to be catered for, but I am still dreading it.
6/ email receipts are sent when payment is taken. If payment fails (e.g. Because of a cloned card being stopped) then the system sends you an email requesting new payment details. You then login to the system and enter the new details and payment is taken. This process has been used by a few people and, as far as I am aware, has not caused any issues. I'd say the only issue here will be if the automated email goes to junk. For this reason I might set something up to email the organiser if payment fails and does not get resolved within 48hrs. (It is highlighted on the Finance pages but I think we may need to be more proactive here).

Thanks for posting

[JimW]

I've been producing documents in MS Word & Excel for something like 25 years, and I've still never used 'mail merge' and it is not obvious why it would be the right tool for exporting data to print on cards.

It is probably just that it has a misleading name so I have never felt a need to look up what it does, presumably takes details from a database (CSV or XLS file?) and positions them in the correct locations to be printed on a standard form? (i.e. an envelope is implied by its name, but you can use any media?) I have no doubt I will be able to set it up when I find time to look into it (I even get on with simply slalom), but a lot of organisers are a lot less IT savvy than me - is it easy for them to set up? Will it work across lots of versions of windows, word, and printers?

[Dee]

Jim - this is one of my concerns!

[Patrick O'Hara]

As mentioned in my earlier reply I believe the answer is for the application to generate a pdf which can then be printed. To be clear I'm not talking about a print to pdf function, I'm suggesting that the application defines the PDF layout using JavaScript libraries such as jsPDF or pdfmake. Apart from the hardwork and time required to enhance the application to do this is there any technical reason why this is not possible?

[Dee]

As mentioned in my earlier reply I believe the answer is for the application to generate a pdf which can then be printed. To be clear I'm not talking about a print to pdf function, I'm suggesting that the application defines the PDF layout using JavaScript libraries such as jsPDF or pdfmake. Apart from the hardwork and time required to enhance the application to do this is there any technical reason why this is not possible?

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring the suggestion, just haven't had time to look at it yet.

The short answer is - I don't know as I have not tried it.

To be fair the original reason for avoiding this was the size of the old cards - to match them would have been an issue as they were so non-standard and I really did not want lots of emails regarding printer problems.

With the new card sizes, it becomes more practical. Even then, printing to the actual cards will certainly cause issues with some printers not lineing up properly. Will organisers be happy to supply appropriate size card and then cut it up?
Would it be possible to have a stock of "blank" pre-perforated cards that organisers could use for the purpose?

It is probably possible to find a component that I can add in to create a pdf, but as you say there is this thing called time! In spite of my apparent reluctance, I do come back to most suggestions and look for alternatives and ways of making it work, so I will investigate further. I just can't promise anything.

[Canadian Paddler]

Jezrix said
We'd like to use online entries for 2018 for all the slaloms we run. I did make inquires as to whether we could take out insurance for financial loss, but didn't get anywhere. A better solution might be for GB canoeing to underwrite the online system for all events - the risk appears small and the potential loss would be limited to 4 weeks of event entry money hel

Of course there is alwayd rule D2.3.2

D2.3.2 If the accounts for a competition show a deficit, the organising group may make an application to the Slalom Committee who may consider giving limited financial assistance to
offset costs necessarily incurred.

Not guaranteeing the profit, but covering the loss.

[jezrix]

We're also using the online entry system for our double Div 2 on July 1/2.
Jez

Ummm! Are you sure about that one? It was initiated, but setup was never completed, so I don't believe this is currently true!

You're correct Dee, my mistake. It looks like we are sticking with postal entries for the July 1/2 event

[jezrix]

We'd like to use online entries for 2018 for all the slaloms we run. I did make inquires as to whether we could take out insurance for financial loss, but didn't get anywhere. A better solution might be for GB canoeing to underwrite the online system for all events - the risk appears small and the potential loss would be limited to 4 weeks of event entry money held by Stripe (~£30K?) - which is small compared to GB canoeing's income. Do people think this is a good idea? If yes, what would be the best route to make such a request to GB canoeing?

Just checking who you mean by GB canoeing

• BC Slalom Committee - This is not a small amount relative to the income of BC committee, if that is what is meant, then it could go on teh agenda of the next meeting if the repsonse is quick
• Home Fedearation Slalom Committees - This would probably wupe out the Fedearyion committees as well
• British Canoing Performance (was GB Performance a while ago) - their money is ring fenced for Olympic and (to a lesser extent) Worlds medals (I believe)
• British Canoeing as a whole?

I meant British Canoeing as a whole. I don't fully understand how the system works, but perhaps such a request to British Canoeing could go through the BC Slalom Committee of behalf of the Federation Slalom Committees?