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Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:31 am
by Dee
CeeBee
I really do not want to have different types of sort depending on race.
This would be really confusing for paddlers and an absolute pain to maintain
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:38 am
by CeeBee
Dee
I wasn't proposing different types of sort just throwing some alternative options into the mix. Whatever is agreed needs to be standard across the board, simple and fair. I don't think the current proposal as it stands is particularly fair.
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:10 pm
by rose
When only the top of Div 1 got invited to paddle in the British Open it was the end of the season, and promotion was only at the end of the season, so most of those paddlers were going to paddle in Premier Division the next season; not sure the same principle can be applied to paddle ups?
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:55 am
by Patrick O'Hara
As a Div 2/3/4 organiser this proposal doesn’t really impact me but I can’t help but think it’s a backward step. Good progress was made last year in simplifying running events, small changes like removing multi class and double discounts certainly made my job easier. This proposal has complexity written all over it. Online system or no online system, it will make the organisers job harder and be more difficult for competitors (and their parents) to understand.
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:07 am
by Canadian Paddler
After a long discussion, the motion was amended and end as
UK C11.2 The deadline for entries to Ranking Competitions shall be 15 days prior to the first day of the competition (the Friday two weeks prior to the competition).
The priority entry deadline (before which host paddlers get priority of entry) is the Friday four weeks prior to the competition. The competition organiser may impose a limit on numbers, either in the published calendar or at the time of planning the start list. If such a limit is applied, priority of entry shall be as follows:
a) Up to and including the Priority Entry Deadline: Host division paddlers, in order of receipt of entries.
b) After the Priority Entry Deadline:
Host paddlers in order of receipt, followed by “paddling up” in order of ranking percentile on the Priority Entry Deadline. If two or more competitors have the same percentile they must be accepted, or remain on the waiting list together, even if this results in a small increase in the maximum entries.
Ranking percentile is the current ranking position divided by the number in the division rounded to a whole percentage. E.g. if there are 70 in the division, the 16th placed athlete will be 16/70*100 = 22.85%, rounded to 23%. Where an athlete has not competed, the percentile will be taken from the start of year ranking.
Paddle up entries after the Priority Deadline will be put at the bottom of the paddle up priority list, ordered by date of entry only.
c) If a paddler is promoted into the host division, their entry is treated as a host division entry received at the date the organiser is notified. If the Competitor has an accepted paddle up entry this will be converted to a Host division entry, otherwise they will remain on the waiting list, but with higher (host) priority.
Host division entry, otherwise they will remain on the waiting list, but with higher (host) priority.
The amended motion was adopted nem con.
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:39 pm
by JimW
Good luck Dee!
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:13 pm
by Dee
This will be done (I hope!) in time for when organisers start to release places, but in the early part of the year, at least, the waiting list paddlers can see may continue to be sorted by entry order whilst I do the work involved.
Hoping it won't be too bad, but it has to wait as I want to refactor div 4s first whilst it's all quiet (I'm hoping then to get scratch C2s enabled)
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:00 am
by djberriman
The 2019 ranking database is well under way with the new paddle up percentage being calculated. You can now see your current ranking percentage on the 2018 ranking lists. It might not stay quite as currently displayed but it will be there somewhere and it is always in your individual bib record.
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:25 am
by andy n
Duncan
From the ACM:
"Ranking percentile is the current ranking position divided by the number in the division rounded to a whole percentage. E.g. if there are 70 in the division, the 16th placed athlete will be 16/70*100 = 22.85%, rounded to 23%."
I was therefore expecting the percentiles to be spread between 1 and 100% but this is not the case e.g. Div 1 C1M %'s are between 1 and 70%
Can you please clarify?
Thanks, Andy
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:48 am
by Canadian Paddler
I suspect it is a slip of the coding.
The percentiles appear to divide by the number of entries including the promotees, not just the expected number remaining in the division.
Thanks for all your work Duncan
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:03 pm
by JimW
Further complication- shouldn't all of those on zero points (SS) have the same percentile i.e. taking 1C1M; all are joint 37th not 37th to 41st.
And then there is the issue not only of inclusion of promotees (are non SS paddlers with 0 points also still included at this stage?), but whether you divide by number in class, or lowest ranking which will make a further difference to whether 37th place is 91% or 100%...
Hmm, even further complication, shouldn't paddlers on equal points other than zero also get the same percentile?
Although I currently have 1% in 2K1M due to the inclusion of 'missing' paddlers, that would drop to 3% after removing missing paddlers and if SS zeroes are counted equal, but Eliot on the same points would only drop to 2%...
Or are paddlers on equal points not considered equal because previous ranking/promotion date is used as well?
Pesky maths!
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:13 pm
by CeeBee
From what I can see the percentile is based on the number of paddlers in the class as determined by the number of bibs in the class.
using C1M as an example,
The highest bib number shown on the ranking list is 65.
There are 7 promotions.
So, there are 58 paddlers in the class, some of who have not raced (e.g. no results for bibs 1,2,3,4,6,9,10 etc but these are still counted as being in the class).
The paddler that is ranked 41 has the percentile calculated as 41/58 = 70.7%
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:04 am
by JimW
CeeBee wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:13 pm
From what I can see the percentile is based on the number of paddlers in the class as determined by the number of bibs in the class.
using C1M as an example,
The highest bib number shown on the ranking list is 65.
There are 7 promotions.
So, there are 58 paddlers in the class, some of who have not raced (e.g. no results for bibs 1,2,3,4,6,9,10 etc but these are still counted as being in the class).
The paddler that is ranked 41 has the percentile calculated as 41/58 = 70.7%
Recalling a couple of conversations I had with some English paddlers/parents towards the end of the year, this makes complete sense and is most likely a deliberate feature of the percentile calculation...
Re: ACM Motion 6.2 Paddle Up Priority
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:29 am
by djberriman
The percentile is indeed worked out from all bibs in the division. It does NOT include those that have been promoted but DOES include those that have applied for a bib but not raced.
It is I agree slightly confusing as on the 1st September those who have not paddled are removed from the display on Nicks website automatically.
This figure was designed for those on squads who have to say end the season in the top 30% of all paddlers in the division. Unfortunately when the paddlers automatically vanished on 1st September as normal there were some very worried/confused paddlers. Nick and I were not aware of the ranking database being used in this way and I added the percentile figure to help paddlers, parents and coaches.
I will ensure there is clarity for next year my thought is that the ranking list will show the paddlers current percentile (which I've already added).
The paddlers individual record will show their start of year percentile, current percentile and paddle up percentile.
Please note however it will vary as results are loaded and paddlers are promoted to and from the division.