Back-up Dates?

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Jerry Tracey
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:09 am

Back-up Dates?

Post by Jerry Tracey » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:24 pm

In view of recent unavoidable cancellations, should we perhaps consider a system of provisional and back-up dates for events, as is used for surf competitions? This would probably not apply for artificial courses and most dam release events, but it could be very useful for those venues that are prone to too high/too low water level problems.

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by WindsorCC » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:53 am

I think that's well worth consideration. Appreciate it won't be ideal due to people planning weekends, work, accommodation etc, but surely having a back-up date that not everyone can make is better than no race at all?

For somewhere like Shepperton it'd be great to have a backup date a month later, as you're far more likely to have the right levels on at least one of those dates.

humphr
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:16 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by humphr » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:57 am

What about Back Up Venues but keeping the same date?
Another parent

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by djberriman » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:35 am

I'd guess backup venues would be nigh on impossible.

If water is low, then its usually low in the region, asking a club somewhere else in the country to run a backup event at short notice would I think be nigh on impossible.

Booking an artificial course at short notice (or holding an option) pretty impossible and very expensive.

There might be one or two races where it may be possible but then you have the issues of if camping etc is available and the sheer logistics involved.

Even backup dates are difficult, if you've been to the ACM you'd understand how hard it is to agree the calendar we have. Lower level events are run by people who race at Prems and 1's. Free weekends are very limited and volunteers have other commitments. Life is already organised around slalom so to add extra 'possible' dates to the mix would I think be a step too far.

PS. Dam release are getting more and more difficult, too little water around (won't release as not allowed to waste or potential enviomental damage), too much water (not allowed to release as can cause flooding), wrong time of year |(environmental breaks), other environmental reasons, equipment failures. Not as assured as they used to be.
Last edited by djberriman on Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by JimW » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:36 am

The only issue I can see with this, is that sorting out the managed calendar for just one possible date per race, is actually a pretty mammoth task already. If organisers were applying for spare dates as well as alternative dates (to avoid clashes) the headache for those trying to schedule the calendar and keep peace between clubs warring over dates would increase a lot!

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by JimW » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:38 am

To clarify - I haven't been to an ACM, I was only thinking of the period in the summer when we squabble over dates before the application deadline, I had no idea there was even more headache after the provisional calendar is set getting it all confirmed at the ACM!

But just because it would be difficult, doesn't mean it is not worth discussing!

djberriman
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Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by djberriman » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:44 am

I totally agree all ideas worth discussing and we are, my reply is just my humble opinion. I'm just putting across from an organisers point of view why it may not be possible. Happy to be proved wrong.

What we really need are more volunteers and more clubs willing to run events. Thus reducing the workload for everyone then (in my humble opinion) it might be possible.

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by Dee » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:47 am

I think part of the issue, in the past, has been lack of visibility. When one competition moves this invariably has a knock on effect. However, sometimes clubs aren't aware of late changes until days before the ACM, which means discussion around what happens when and how resulting clashes can be resolved.

*** Unashamed Plug ***
I'm hoping that by putting the calendar applications process online (www.canoeslalomentries.co.uk/managed-calendar) we can improve visibility and reduce the last minute scrambles a little bit
*** Plug Mode Off ***

I think agreeing back-up dates for all comps in advance would be nice but nigh on impossible (probably similar odds to me winning the lottery)
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Mike Mitchell
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by Mike Mitchell » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:42 pm

Alternative Sites.

Symonds Yat last weekend was running at about 0.7meters. [Shepperton canceled with No water]
This would make a good challenging level for a Div1 Event.
Usually this time of year it is around 3.00 meters and washed out.

So it is 2.5 hours from Shepperton but on the same latitude.
So from the North its about the same distance to travel.

We would probably need to take a weather forecast some 4 weeks before the race and make a provisional decision.
But it could be something to consider.

Steve Holmes
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by Steve Holmes » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:02 pm

Surely a back up venue would require a back up organisation team? Asking event organisers to uproot and travel 2.5 hours to organise an event at a venue potentially unknown to them. Most events rely on club volunteers to run. Asking volunteers to travel 2.5 hours is a bit much. If you’ve got a whole team on standby ready to organise a back up, then the team would surely be happy to organise the event a different weekend and then both events could be on the calendar.

Mrs C P Paddler
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:47 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by Mrs C P Paddler » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:28 pm

And what about the Timing and judging teams ? Div 1's, according to the rules, have to, where possible, be timed by the timing team and judged by section judges.
We struggle to recruit people to both teams as there are so many events to commit to already and therefore do not have enough people to have 'back up' teams. If alternative dates were used you would be adding to costs of both teams (if prepared to commit to yet ANOTHER weekend) as they would have to change accommodation and transport kit to wherever. Only a small amount of this come out of slalom funds, every weekend costs us money. This year we are looking at judging as a whole with the view of recruiting and pushing people through the judging exams. However, until we have enough people, you are asking both teams to give up yet more time and basically forgo a life outside of canoeing which seems to get forgotten when mad ideas like this pop up. The number of events that we are asked to time and judge is already the reason why people drop out of volunteering.
As already mentioned, its hard enough at the ACM to get an agreed calendar and adding this to it would make it impossible to finalise. The original intention of the Managed calendar was to have a list where we wanted Prems, Div 1's, div 2's to take place and ask clubs to run events at those sites. Then we would have ALL events agreed before the ACM so it could be rubber stamped on the day with minor changes. This fails to happen year after year for reasons already mentioned.

Mike Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by Mike Mitchell » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:23 pm

So the way I read this is.

1. We can't have an alternative Date because the Calendar is already to full. I agree on this having attended the ACM, there just are not any alternative Dates.

2. We can't change the venue because the timing team and section judges can't change there plans.
But they have already committed to the weekend anyway.
Solution,We probably do need lots more section judges and helpers with timing, but that could be addressed.

4. If the venue did change then it would probably need a different club to run it, this would need agreeing when the options are first proposed. After all it is not going to be the first time Two clubs have got together to run an event.
Solution could be:- we have a event organising team.

3. The question Is:- do paddlers that have trained and committed to a weekends racing object to a change in venue if water or condition dictate. From those I have spoken to the answer is YES

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by JimW » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:35 am

Having thought some more about this, given that wild water canoeing is essentially a weather dependant sport, and slaloms (apart from div 4) are held on wild water, considering the number of races on the calendar over the divisions, we actually manage with very few cancellations.

I can think of dozens of kite buggy races that had to be cancelled (or more usually where we sat around and couldn't race) for a number of weather reasons. Too little wind, too much wind, dangerous gusts, rain, low pressure causing beaches to flood when they should have been dry. Don't even get me started on some the accidents that happened when we did race in marginal conditions.

Slalom does pretty well in my opinion.

lesf
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 5:15 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by lesf » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:25 pm

a life outside of canoeing
- what is this? Please can someone explain?

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Back-up Dates?

Post by Dee » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:36 pm

lesf wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:25 pm
a life outside of canoeing
- what is this? Please can someone explain?
Completely fictitious; just a rumour!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

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