British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

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Patrick O'Hara
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British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by Patrick O'Hara » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:36 pm

If you have not seen the British Canoeing Club Consultation Survey (link below) have a look at it and make sure your club responds, it looks like it could have a significant impact on entry level slalom (and other disciplines). The proposed changes and my view of possible impacts are:

1. Exclusion of competitive paddling from club activities covered by British Canoeing third party liability insurance
“Club Associate Members are covered for third party liability insurance for any paddling activity within their club… It should be noted that… competitive paddling are not included. Individuals taking part in these activities are recommended to join as full members of British Canoeing or seek alternative insurance arrangements”
Impact: Anyone taking part in a club activity where an element of competition is involved is not covered by insurance unless a full BC member, this will make holding club competitions difficult.

2. Removal of Youth Cards and Changes to Event Insurance
“The Youth Card system as currently operates will cease.” “Non BC members will be required to purchase a “Day Event Ticket” before they take part in any competition” “Junior & Adult Club Associate Members £5, Non BC members £10” “The individual will be required to provide British Canoeing (via an online system) with their name, birthdate, email address and postcode and a fee of as part of the process of purchasing a Day Event Ticket”
Impact: A reduction in Div 4 entries and people entering the sport because:
a. Club youth members will have to buy a Day Event Ticket to enter a Div 4 in addition to their entry fee.
b. Rather than £5 for an event (the whole weekend) it looks like it will have to be paid both days
c. Independent paddlers or members of non-affiliated clubs (e.g. schools, local scout groups) will have to pay an additional £10 per day rather than £5 for the weekend to enter a Div 4
d. The requirement to purchase Day Event Tickets online will make entry on the day more difficult and impossible in some locations.

3. Removal of Ability for Clubs to Assess Coach Competence
“regulations allow for some individuals to lead and coach paddling activities on the basis of an assessment of their competence made by club committee members. It is proposed to change this so that all coaches, leaders and instructors will be required to hold a certified British Canoeing qualification and be currently qualified with all necessary updates undertaken”
Impact: Clubs will have less people able to coach slalom and will incur more training cost.

https://britishcanoeing.formstack.com/f ... ss_2019_20

CeeBee
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by CeeBee » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:16 pm

1. Exclusion of competitive paddling from club activities covered by British Canoeing third party liability insurance
“Club Associate Members are covered for third party liability insurance for any paddling activity within their club… It should be noted that… competitive paddling are not included. Individuals taking part in these activities are recommended to join as full members of British Canoeing or seek alternative insurance arrangements”
Impact: Anyone taking part in a club activity where an element of competition is involved is not covered by insurance unless a full BC member, this will make holding club competitions difficult.
I think we need to clarify which category a club competition falls under. Is it covered under club activity or is it excluded as it is a competition. Common sense would suggest that a club competition for club members (or up to 4 inter clubs with the club being the host club) is covered as a club activity.
2. Removal of Youth Cards and Changes to Event Insurance
We don't have youth cards in Scotland and have had to pay Day membership for all Division 4 paddlers who are not members of the SCA. We only take this charge once for paddlers who compete in Div 4 on both Saturday and Sunday but many of those who enter only race on 1 day. This doubles the entry cost which isn't a good message to send out for those who are starting down the competition path.

The SCA does however allow these £5 day memberships to be offset against an annual membership fee when these paddlers take it out.

The £5 day membership fee seems excessive - I would have thought £1- £2 per day would be more than reasonable. This is also an additional burden on the club to get all the paperwork completed and day membership fees collected to pass to the governing body.

We used to have an 'open' class at slaloms to allow paddlers to enter 2 events to try slalom before they committed any further. This worked really well.

As I understand it, the day membership income is all retained by the governing body and so is a form of raising income. Given that it is the voluntary clubs who are running all these competitions on behalf of the governing body, I think it is really important that the clubs are part of this decision and buy into the charges since it is the clubs that will have to collect it. It has certainly made me think twice about organising entry level events which get no external support from the governing body who will pocket the proceeds.

Dee
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by Dee » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:12 pm

I strongly believe that any changes should include automatic cover for all competitors at entry level events, ie div 4 and 3/4. Our rules would then require paddlers applying for a bib to have full membership as they do currently, but would not need to worry about who was and wasn’t a member. (If necessary this could be a one off fixed fee per competition paid via Slalom committee)

The rules regarding youth membership are complex as cover only applies to those who belong to a club with a declared youth section and not all clubs do, so it often doesn’t apply even though paddlers and organisers assume it does. I would therefore be glad to see the end of this even if it meant some youngsters paying extra as it would at least be fair and certainly easier to administrate.

I’ve only run one div 4 and after discovering just how complex insurance issues were said I would never do so again until they were resolved.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

djberriman
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by djberriman » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:35 am

I need to read the full info on this but from what I've seen this will have a dire effect on a lot of clubs and the sport.

The last set of changes a few years back lost us a lot of coaches as they were not prepared to redo their qualifications.

It appears not only may we once again lose some due to the stringent qualification requirements but we will also lose any certified by clubs.

I can see a lot of clubs folding or being severely limited by what they do and as soon as any of your qualification expires you'll have to stop coaching. It may be like I've had before that a course has been cancelled due to lack of numbers and you have to wait months for another one.

As for BC membership I think associate membership should cover both adults and juniors to take part in entry level sport. It's simple and means easy access to try a discipline. Why put barriers in the way?

How many insurance claims have their been associated with clubs and how many would have been prevented?

How will a day event ticket be purchase (online) at events with no internet access. Are BC going to provide and pay for suitable equipment to do this or will it once again be down to the unpaid volunteer to organise collection of the BC fee? All sorts of GDPR issues if its done on paper and potentially even if they use a volunteers computer.

CeeBee
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by CeeBee » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:49 pm

I strongly believe that any changes should include automatic cover for all competitors at entry level events, ie div 4 and 3/4. Our rules would then require paddlers applying for a bib to have full membership as they do currently, but would not need to worry about who was and wasn’t a member. (If necessary this could be a one off fixed fee per competition paid via Slalom committee)
I would completely agree Dee. If a paddler is a member of their club and the paddler is registered through the governing body, this should enable paddler to try competition at Div 4 level for Div 4 or Div 3/4 races. I don't think a fee needs to apply. The club have paid club membership based on the number of non governing body members in the club as part of the club membership application.

It is good to see that the governing body are consulting on the membership changes. I would like to see the governing body actively make it easier for all the voluntary clubs to run events on behalf of governing body and for clubs to start paddlers off in competitions. As the slalom committee minutes reflect, slalom participation is falling and we actively need to take steps to reverse this decline.

Dee
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by Dee » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:36 pm

CeeBee wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:49 pm
.. If a paddler is a member of their club and the paddler is registered through the governing body ...
No, I'd go further than this ... If an entry level competition is organised on behalf on governing body then all competitors should automatically be covered.

Organisers have absolutely no way of checking club membership, so let's just keep it simple. If necessary a fixed fee could be paid for each competition at div 4 and div 3. The risks are extremely low so any premiums would surely reflect this.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

CeeBee
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by CeeBee » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:21 pm

Is this really an insurance issue?

What exactly does an individual paddler competing need insurance for?

How could anyone possibly claim against an individual paddler and what evidence would be needed?

There are lots of people at an event who are not insured e.g. volunteer judges and some paddling non ranked officials. We often have newbie paddlers practicing the course before they have entered the race to see whether they want to try their first race. They are not insured as individuals at this point until they enter.

As a general rule, when I walk down the street, I don't have any insurance cover so not sure why I would need insurance at Division 4 level on what is essentially flat or low level white water.

The club are insured for running the event.

Nick Taylor
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by Nick Taylor » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:44 am

There some very disruptive ideas in this 'consultation' document...
Viking Kayak Club have prepared responses for our members to use in responding to the survey
Anyone is welcome to use our words
Our response document is here https://www.dropbox.com/s/rathzsk4hcyo6 ... .docx?dl=0

The survey close tomorrow 28-Feb so be quick

It only took me 2 minutes to copy & paste the responses from the Viking document in the survey webpage

Steve Holmes
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by Steve Holmes » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:42 pm

My thoughts are that if the proposed changes come in clubs will either fold completely due to not being able to get groups on the water, or band together and seek alternative insurance.
The outdoors industry relies on 3 routes to competence which their insurance companies would recognise:
NGB qualifications
Experience
Site specific competence which is signed off by a technical advisor

There should be a way of finding an insurance company that will insure canoe clubs to act within these guidelines given the incidence rate over the years has been, to the best of my knowledge, relatively low.

Steve Holmes
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by Steve Holmes » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:44 pm

Thanks Nick, will use these later.

lesf
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Re: British Canoeing - Club Consultation Survey (Not the same as Stronger Together 2021-2025 survey)

Post by lesf » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:09 pm

I've heard it's not the insurance company that are pushing for this!

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