6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

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Canadian Paddler
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6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Canadian Paddler » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:27 pm

Following discussion at early ACMs, and input from those ranked as veteran, there has been a trial of changed veterans points in parallel to the ranking system during this season.
The revised system appears to better reflect the abilities of the athletes, so it is proposed to adopt this.
In addition, the increasing number of athletes paddling as veterans is straining the supplies of bibs, and making it harder to separate the events within the single division. It is therefore proposed that the veterans divisional bibs, and ranking are separated by event rather than remaining in a single ranking list. Bibs from previous international events are available to enable this to be undertaken without cost to the committee. Page 54ff (MM)
Note: in drafting these changes it was noted that in some cases the cross references in the rules have become disconnected. An exercise will be undertaken to check and correct all cross references before the 2021/2 rules are issued.
2.9.1 The divisional system of five divisions (Premier, 1, 2, 3 and 4) in each of the four events (MK1, WK1, WC1 and MC1) and one division in the C2 event ensures that there is a standard of competition suitable for athletes of all degrees of ability. In addition, there is a Veterans division in each of the four events (MK1, WK1, WC1 and MC1) and a competition series for Officials.

2.10.3 Difficulty factor
To reflect the degree of difficult for Veterans racing in competitions hosting higher divisions, the points awarded will be increased by a difficulty factor. The points calculated under 2.10.3.b -d will be increased to by:
- Division 2 event points calculated will be increased by 125 points
- Division 1 event points calculated will be increased by 250 points
- Premier event points calculated will be increased by 500 points
2.10.43 Calculating points – Quorate Divisional Event
2.10.43a If a corresponding Divisional event is quorate (see Rule 1.4) the following calculations are applicable. Ranking points are obtained by comparing scores with the corresponding divisional event. Where a Veteran’s score does not correspond exactly with a score in the divisional event points will be awarded for the next place higher lower. If the Veteran’s score matches the score of more than one athlete in the corresponding divisional event, then the points awarded to the higher placed divisional athlete will be used. If the above calculation fails to match to a host division score then the Veteran will be awarded points according to 2.10.4.d.

2.10.34.c3 In the case of a competition hosting more than one Division, scores will be compared with every Division in the same event and the highest points found will be awarded, for instance, at a Division 2/3 race, a WK1 Veteran's score will be compared with those of WK1 in both Division 2 and Division 3 and the higher score so found will be awarded.
2.10.4.d Where a Veterans score is lower than any host division score the the Veteran will be awarded the points allocated to thepoints below. No difficulty factor will be applied:
‣ Division 3 -10 points
‣ Division 2 -20 points
‣ Division 1 -30 points
‣ Premier –40 Points
2.10.4 Calculating points – Inquorate Divisional Event
2.10.4.a In the case of a competition hosting more one Division, ranking points will be calculated against the corresponding Men’s Kayak’s event using the method described in section 6.6.2.
2.10. 4.c In the case of a competition hosting more than one Division, where any one (or more) of the corresponding divisional events is inquorate the Veteran’s modified score will be compared to MK1’s scores for that division and to the corresponding quorate divisional events where available. The highest points found will be awarded.
For example: A Division 2/3 race hosts a Division 3 WK1 event that is inquorate and a Division 2 WK1 event that is quorate. In this case a WK1 Veteran's modified score will be compared with those of MK1 in Division 3 (using the method described in 1.10.2.) and her raw score with Division 2 WK1 (using the method described in 6.6.2). The highest score so found will be awarded.
The remaining sections of 2.10 are to be renumbered appropriately.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points

harratts
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by harratts » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:11 pm

The proposed new system to calculate Veteran's points seems to add an awful lot of unnecessary complexity to me.

What difference will the new system make?

Who or rather How Many will it benefit?

Is it worth the bother?

The big benefit of being a Vet. is that you can enter any level of event you wish to, not how many points you get for doing so.

There, I've set us off. Now go for it!
Steve

Steve Holmes
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Steve Holmes » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:13 pm

I agree with Steve!

Mike Mitchell
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Mike Mitchell » Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:21 pm

I am going to stay Neutral on this. Sit on the Fence.
But will post the options tomorrow. :D

Canadian Paddler
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Canadian Paddler » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:09 pm

There has been some analysis and thinking about this years parallel run of the possible veterans system.

Bob Grundy has done some thinking, and talking and analysis and come up with a possible amendment. His thoughts and conclusions are summarised in the document linked below

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10UkGgQ ... sp=sharing

Please have a look at it and consider it between veterans and in your clubs. There is a good bit of logic in this, if you agree his vision. It is not a bif divergence from teh proposal, just fine tuning of the 'difficulty factor'

None of this stops any veteran entering any race, it just affects the pointe allocated, with the aim of a distribution that rewards those beating prem paddlers more than those beating division 2. Whilst preserving the overlap to allow a good div 2 run to score more points than a rubbish Div 1 run.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points

rose
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by rose » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:54 pm

I prefer the current system to Bob proposal; if you paddle div 1 or prem you have the potential to gain more points.
Uplifts of 700 for prem and 400 for div is a bit far fetched!!!

rose
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by rose » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:53 am

This year we have had an increase of Veterans at lower divisions, I do not think the participation at div 1 and prem is particularly high so these points are just for a few paddlers especially at prem level. I think this also may encourage competitive older paddlers to enters events above there current ability. Surely it is for fun, and if lower division vet does well why should they not challenge the championship!!! Encouragement for all I think.

rose
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by rose » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:02 am

If younger paddlers from prem and div 1 were to enter the Vets, this would alter the points a lot.

Ship
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Ship » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:21 pm

Hi
I disagree with the proposal,

The "difficult factor" gives you more points than the athlete who is in the normal ranking system who gets a similar time. How is this fair? In normal ranking you can get demoted if you don't get enough points but for Vets this system gives you more for trying.
Paddle ups do not get any more points because it's difficult. Why should vets?
The current points system allows more points to be gained on higher division courses already so why do we need a difficult factor.

Fundamentally, Vets have moved away from the normal ranking for their own reasons and in the current system if they want the points go to the race they can excel at, if they want to enjoy difficult water then go to higher races. The current points system gives vets (and paddle ups) the opportunity to gain higher points on faster waters so why do we need another system.

Who and how many does this affect. Whatever system is in place there will always be changes wanted, leave it as it is.

JBS
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by JBS » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:46 pm

I'm with the last post on this. Got my highest points at the British Open. Yes, it's harder to get the points but it's very rewarding when you do.

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Phil
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Phil » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:21 pm

Disagree with keeping the "status quo", currently the rankings bare no relationship to the degree of difficulty of the race.

I managed to do three races this year, 1 div one + 1 div two + 1 div three. My races at Llandysul div one
earned me 42 points on both days for four good runs on a fairly technical course, this compares with 250 points earned at Stone div three for mediocre runs on a flat course. These points are meaningless, may as we give them based on the number of teeth we've got left :shock:

I can't see the logic in not changing, it won't limit paddlers ability to race at whatever division and event they want. This ability to race wherever is a major factor in the increases in numbers at all divisions, and the proposals don't change this.

We had a good number of vets starters on the start line at Llandysul, and we all knew that for most of us the points gained where going to be negligible. I'll still carry on doing mainly div ones in spite of getting nothing from it.

Jasper
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Jasper » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:58 pm

Hi Phil.

While I can see what you are getting at, the fact remains that those were the Ranking Points that you would have secured if you had competed in Division 1 at Llandysul and the same can be said if you had competed in Division 3 at Stone.

The current system indicates the ranking division that us Veterans should be placed into if there was no Vet.'s Division.

Leave it as it is and go to races that you are at a standard to be competitive at. Whatever the system used, this will be different for each individual Paddler.

Mike Mitchell
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Mike Mitchell » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:57 pm

Somehow being on the Slalom Committee and finishing 1st UK Vet I have the job of doing the presentation for this at the ACM.

So I will stay as neutral as possible and my Club have decided against Voting.

So if everyone can make there mind up before the ACM then we will get more time for Tea and Cake.

The motion has now been around for some 2 years, it was talked about in length in 2019 and tested this year.

So for the season just gone I did 16 Races. 2 @ Div 2. 4 @ Prem and 10 @ Div1.

Best 5 Ranking Results.
Points Gained. Points Under Proposed New System.
Div 1 Chapel Falls. 605 831
Tully Div 2. 480 585
Tully Div 2 479 583
Tees Div 1 364 591
Chapel Falls 275 500
So a Div 1 was my best result but that was from 1 Run over 10 races.
Under both systems I still would have been 1st so it douse not make a lot of difference.
I actually enjoy trying to come above half way in a Div One to get over the magic 500 point on offer at a Div 2. [As well as beating Joel and Bob :D ]

But something to consider is, Under the proposed system my 5 best races would change. At the 4 Prem races I managed 204. 122. 83. and 41 points.
Under the new system this would be 633. 582. 542. and 0 points.
So my best point would have come from 1 Div 1 / 2 Div 2 and 2 Prem races. Which douse look like a fairer solution.

Also in the Ladies Rose Did 18 Races and the end of season result would be the same on either system.

Then if the new proposal gets past ? there is also a modified motion to be considered. But it will be time for Tea and Cake by then.

Canadian Paddler
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by Canadian Paddler » Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:53 pm

Amended so that the Difficulty Factor (2.10.3) to be 700 for Premier races, 400 at Division 1 and 150 at division 2. Then accepted.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points

alan1nckc
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Re: 6.2 Veterans Points (75/25)

Post by alan1nckc » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:43 pm

Just need a little clarification.
Where a VET score in a Div 2/3 event is complred with both Div 2 and Div 3 K1M to calculate points, and in the case where the points were found from the Div 3 class, should the difficulty factor applied be that for the Div 2 or the Div 3 event?

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