Just a quick reminder. If this is to be a change for next season, it has to be in a motion to the ACM. Motions from clubs have to be with the secretary by 21st October.
PM me if you need more information on how to do that - or email me.
Graphs etc can be made available with the Agenda papers, and can be dispayed at teh meeting if it assists.
Vet getting too many points
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Secretary Man
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:09 pm
Re: Vet getting too many points
Hon Secretary to the British Canoeing Slalom Committee
( a different Id is used for personal rants and raves)
( a different Id is used for personal rants and raves)
Re: Vet getting too many points
Hi Rick,
I for one would be very interested to hear, see, read more about your alternative approach as I suspect other Vet.'s would be.
Is it possible to join the Slalom Masters Group at all?
See you again soon.
Steve
I for one would be very interested to hear, see, read more about your alternative approach as I suspect other Vet.'s would be.
Is it possible to join the Slalom Masters Group at all?
See you again soon.
Steve
Re: Vet getting too many points
admin of that whatsapp group is Bob Grundy.
I'm just updating my plots with the latest race results
I experimented attaching an image to this message to see what happens -maybe it can be viewed as an attachment, I don't know
![Image]()
I'm just updating my plots with the latest race results
I experimented attaching an image to this message to see what happens -maybe it can be viewed as an attachment, I don't know
Re: Vet getting too many points
anyone interested in some bedtime reading on this topic, with pictures
then PM me your email or cellphone number
and I'll send you a couple of short pdf files on the proposal taking shape
then PM me your email or cellphone number
and I'll send you a couple of short pdf files on the proposal taking shape
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Mike Mitchell
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm
Re: Vet getting too many points
Just an observation from last weekend.
At Tees Prem on Sat we had 3 paddlers in K1 M.. I came 1st with 2 penalties and got 40 points. We all got 40 points as we came last in the Prem.
So I had 2 rubbish runs and didn't deserve any points.
If I had gone to my home Slalom at Symonds Yat, one of my paddlers came 1st and I am quite sure I could beat him.
So at the Yat would probably got 500 points plus the uplift.
I am quite happy racing Prem and sometimes I get a good run and get points, but its not the easy way to get them.
I only do it because I like the challenge of a Prem Course.
So I don't really see a problem with the system we have, at the end of the day the best paddlers get the most points and we have some fun.
At Tees Prem on Sat we had 3 paddlers in K1 M.. I came 1st with 2 penalties and got 40 points. We all got 40 points as we came last in the Prem.
So I had 2 rubbish runs and didn't deserve any points.
If I had gone to my home Slalom at Symonds Yat, one of my paddlers came 1st and I am quite sure I could beat him.
So at the Yat would probably got 500 points plus the uplift.
I am quite happy racing Prem and sometimes I get a good run and get points, but its not the easy way to get them.
I only do it because I like the challenge of a Prem Course.
So I don't really see a problem with the system we have, at the end of the day the best paddlers get the most points and we have some fun.
Re: Vet getting too many points
Interesting Mike, you set yourself high standards.
Your score reflects a slightly 'off day' rather than total 'rubbish', as your score was 1.38 that of the winner, %winner - your average %winner at Prem races is 1.41 (best 1.26 at Graveyard Sat and worst 1.77 at HPP Sat).
Applying my proposed method of points calculation, you would have earned 727 at Tees, 812 at Graveyard, 446 at HPP.
As you race a lot, 22 races done, your Tees points would be outside (just) of your best 5 results (all at Prems).
Of the other older paddlers at Tees, vets Chris and Jerry would have got 720 points and 219 points (1.39 and 2.09 %winner, respectively).
The winning vet at Symonds Yat div2 on Saturday had 1.03 %winner, worth 484 proposed points. The lowest placed vet had 2.34 %winner and would have got minimum proposed points (20).
As you say, you could be pretty confident of winning at the Yat, and getting 500 or so points - that should set the minimum for your points expectations from the Tees. The additional difficulty of the water and course at the Tees drives that expectation higher. So the points arising from the proposed system would seem fitting for the various athletes - arguably Jerry may have got more points if he'd raced the div2 at the Yat instead, but the greater challenge at Tees is arguably more fun and entirely his choice.
Your score reflects a slightly 'off day' rather than total 'rubbish', as your score was 1.38 that of the winner, %winner - your average %winner at Prem races is 1.41 (best 1.26 at Graveyard Sat and worst 1.77 at HPP Sat).
Applying my proposed method of points calculation, you would have earned 727 at Tees, 812 at Graveyard, 446 at HPP.
As you race a lot, 22 races done, your Tees points would be outside (just) of your best 5 results (all at Prems).
Of the other older paddlers at Tees, vets Chris and Jerry would have got 720 points and 219 points (1.39 and 2.09 %winner, respectively).
The winning vet at Symonds Yat div2 on Saturday had 1.03 %winner, worth 484 proposed points. The lowest placed vet had 2.34 %winner and would have got minimum proposed points (20).
As you say, you could be pretty confident of winning at the Yat, and getting 500 or so points - that should set the minimum for your points expectations from the Tees. The additional difficulty of the water and course at the Tees drives that expectation higher. So the points arising from the proposed system would seem fitting for the various athletes - arguably Jerry may have got more points if he'd raced the div2 at the Yat instead, but the greater challenge at Tees is arguably more fun and entirely his choice.
Re: Vet getting too many points
As I understand Ship's original observation and suggestion for a change, if you had gone to the Yat and beaten the winner you would have scored 650 points, not 500. It's not the compensatory 40 points or even the uplift when you beat some prems that there seems to be a problem with, its simply that it is now possible to score more points than the host division winner. I wouldn't change the calculations we have now, just cap it at the host division score so vets effectively paddling down don't score for more than a win.
Re: Vet getting too many points
that is a feature of my proposal too - if you don't beat the winner in the divisional event then you won't get more points than them.
PM me with email or whatsapp details if you want an early view of the Motion from The Sharks Canoe Club on this, and I'll send it you as soon as its finalised and submitted to the Secretary (deadline tomorrow)
PM me with email or whatsapp details if you want an early view of the Motion from The Sharks Canoe Club on this, and I'll send it you as soon as its finalised and submitted to the Secretary (deadline tomorrow)
Re: Vet getting too many points
Big fan of the Vets catergory and saw nothing wrong with the previous system. However, the big issue is not points for us has beens or nearly were's but the ever decreasing numbers!
18 out of 60 K1M in the British Open are Paddle Ups or Intl's training for the Worlds. Tees Div 1 had more Vets than C1's!
This is where our combined brain power should be concentrated!
I know this should be in the Thinking outside of the Box thread but Vets points is the most active thread.......again!
18 out of 60 K1M in the British Open are Paddle Ups or Intl's training for the Worlds. Tees Div 1 had more Vets than C1's!
This is where our combined brain power should be concentrated!
I know this should be in the Thinking outside of the Box thread but Vets points is the most active thread.......again!
Re: Vet getting too many points
I share that concern, and do see this thread as part of the solution.
Greater numbers of adults leave our sport than join it.
Its the adults that bring their children to race, and support all youngsters through coaching and transport of people/boats/equipment to races. Its the adults that organise the races and volunteer.
For numbers of racers to recover to pre-pandemic levels, I suggest the key is to motivate the adults to continue racing (and all the other great things they do), and then the numbers of Juniors will increase too.
Meaningful competition for Masters and Veterans is a way of keeping adults engaged, once they find themselves racing slower than they used to.
Showing younger adults there are pathways in the sport beyond the elite, may help keep their engagement too. A way to do that could be by recognising UK champions by age group within a ranking for older paddlers. A uniform means of calculating points for older racers is an essential precursor to that vision, hence the need to address now the concerns raised with vets points
Greater numbers of adults leave our sport than join it.
Its the adults that bring their children to race, and support all youngsters through coaching and transport of people/boats/equipment to races. Its the adults that organise the races and volunteer.
For numbers of racers to recover to pre-pandemic levels, I suggest the key is to motivate the adults to continue racing (and all the other great things they do), and then the numbers of Juniors will increase too.
Meaningful competition for Masters and Veterans is a way of keeping adults engaged, once they find themselves racing slower than they used to.
Showing younger adults there are pathways in the sport beyond the elite, may help keep their engagement too. A way to do that could be by recognising UK champions by age group within a ranking for older paddlers. A uniform means of calculating points for older racers is an essential precursor to that vision, hence the need to address now the concerns raised with vets points
Re: Vet getting too many points
I don't think it matters what points we earn compared to the division we race against; I think more than that vets can score points at events they enter.
So I know I am not fast enough in div 1 that's why I got demoted to div 2, and now paddle vets giving me the option to go to events with paddlers I coach. It is white a motivation for the paddlers I coach to try and beat me.
I use the div 1 at Llandysul for an example, on the first day I thought I paddled well, on first runs I was beating about the third of the field as they all had 50; on second runs they all managed to get the gates and all slightly faster than me. The ladies Vet results were all quite different, and we all got 30 points.
On the second day at Llandysul the course was easier the water had dropped, but one paddlers got 50's on both runs so two lady vets got 400 plus points, but the same points even though their results were quite different.
So if got our points on a percentage of the winning time I think the system would be more positive, and stop all vets earning the same points; how many points we get compared to the division does not matter because the VETS is a different division. Also the score would hopefully represent your performance.
Without the VETS at Wyedean Canoe Club there would be know slalom paddlers, so the VETS are a very important part of the current system.
So I know I am not fast enough in div 1 that's why I got demoted to div 2, and now paddle vets giving me the option to go to events with paddlers I coach. It is white a motivation for the paddlers I coach to try and beat me.
I use the div 1 at Llandysul for an example, on the first day I thought I paddled well, on first runs I was beating about the third of the field as they all had 50; on second runs they all managed to get the gates and all slightly faster than me. The ladies Vet results were all quite different, and we all got 30 points.
On the second day at Llandysul the course was easier the water had dropped, but one paddlers got 50's on both runs so two lady vets got 400 plus points, but the same points even though their results were quite different.
So if got our points on a percentage of the winning time I think the system would be more positive, and stop all vets earning the same points; how many points we get compared to the division does not matter because the VETS is a different division. Also the score would hopefully represent your performance.
Without the VETS at Wyedean Canoe Club there would be know slalom paddlers, so the VETS are a very important part of the current system.