Each time we run a Div 2/3 event, we have the odd occasion where a time or penalties are recorded against the wrong paddler. This occurs because bib numbera are repeated in K1W, K1M, C1W and C1M. Because the C1 and womens entries are quite small we get the situation where there's only a few minutes separation between the same bib number running in more than one class. For example at this year's event we had 3 number 14's running close together - within 10 minutes. It doesn't take much delay before a clerk is asking for the score for K1M 14, while the judge has just written down C1M 14, and returns that.
Does any other organiser find this to be a problem?
Would it be possible / necessary / feasible to allocate different bib number ranges to different classes within a division. Given the relatively small numbers of paddlers it might be possible to start C1M at 100, C1W at 200 and K1W at 300 for example. While these would still overlap the K1M, and occasionally each other, it would reduce this issue. Even with the K1M overlap, the time separation between similar bibs would be greater.
I appreciate that this would cause problems with the existing stock of bibs.
As a stopgap, if nothing else, could the list of bib colours be published? Some judges do record the bib colour on the sheets, but it can be difficult to discover after the event what the colours signify.
Clashing bib numbers
Re: Clashing bib numbers
Yes and no.
Because you have a div 2/3 event you don't have any paddle ups, try running a div 1 or prem where you have 2 paddlers in the same class wearing the same bib in different colours!
The way around this is to make sure your judges are properly briefed to write down each change of class on their sheet - I usually use a row and just write the new class right across it, but some people do it in the margin. Where you have officials racing in amongst the classes it is useful to brief the judges and tell them if they think the paddler is an official to make a note "off" in the margin - in the old days we used issued temporary bibs so officials were all the same colour, with online entries most of us just use their normal divisional bib/number to save on admin altering the numbers coming through from the system, which means lots more bib colours could appear depending on who is racing officials! At least with judges on headsets if they aren't sure if the next paddler is in the same class they can at least ask - at a div 1 the gate judges don't have headsets and are usually too far to shout queries to the section judges so really have to guess about class changes!
Knowing bib colours can help, although more have been added in the vets categories recently and there are some wide variations where bibs have been lost and replaced with different shades as available at the time. Also, and this was always a problem when I raced div 2 K1 and C1, div 2 K1M and C1M are both yellow. And when I was paddling up, I realised that div 1 K1W are also yellow!
I know you have your own timing and scoring system which as an integrated solution has potential to be better than Simply Slalom, but it is worth noting that almost everyone else uses Simply Slalom, and where we have PU and host division paddlers in the same number, or officials in different classes and divisions in the same number it does warn us on import, although the options it then gives us need more documentation (are you reading Mr Chair? I keep forgetting that this baffles most organisers, i really should send it as a suggestion!). If we accept the offer to auto assign individual numbers, it then checks against it's own internal bib list which is 4 digits long and recognises each division and class a subrange within the 9999 allocations available - in fact SS internally uses these numbers anyway, but converts them back to division and bib for the operator to work with and for the results. So that could help manage the clashes within the software (and I'm sure if you contact the chair he will tell you the unique number ranges he uses) but still doesn't help with the bank side issues of judges noting down change of classes and being aware that numbers may repeat several timnes through the day. The thing is, most of us are used to that and when going back for a number will remember or notice and ask something like is that the one that was after X or the one after Y if we aren't sure.
If you really want a challenge come and run a Scottish Champs some time, anyone from any division can enter (plus guests). "We have 2 K1W in bib 2, we will need to assign different bib to 1 of them, oh but one is Jane, everyone knows Jane she doesn't need a different bib". Well, thats all very well until as you say it is reduced to looking back at bib numbers written on a judging or timing sheet with no context to help... To complicate further, backup times for the champs are just done on Timy with just a bib number typed in - no class designator, so have to read the entire print out or memory and choose by the order in the sequence...
Also, be aware you don;t have to accept the default running order - I don't know if you normally swap it around, but I usually look at the paddlers doubling up in K1 and C1 and work out the class order that gives them generally the biggest gaps between runs, which usually means the smaller classes get split around a bigger class which might also help with spreading the repeated bib numbers out a bit.
Because you have a div 2/3 event you don't have any paddle ups, try running a div 1 or prem where you have 2 paddlers in the same class wearing the same bib in different colours!
The way around this is to make sure your judges are properly briefed to write down each change of class on their sheet - I usually use a row and just write the new class right across it, but some people do it in the margin. Where you have officials racing in amongst the classes it is useful to brief the judges and tell them if they think the paddler is an official to make a note "off" in the margin - in the old days we used issued temporary bibs so officials were all the same colour, with online entries most of us just use their normal divisional bib/number to save on admin altering the numbers coming through from the system, which means lots more bib colours could appear depending on who is racing officials! At least with judges on headsets if they aren't sure if the next paddler is in the same class they can at least ask - at a div 1 the gate judges don't have headsets and are usually too far to shout queries to the section judges so really have to guess about class changes!
Knowing bib colours can help, although more have been added in the vets categories recently and there are some wide variations where bibs have been lost and replaced with different shades as available at the time. Also, and this was always a problem when I raced div 2 K1 and C1, div 2 K1M and C1M are both yellow. And when I was paddling up, I realised that div 1 K1W are also yellow!
I know you have your own timing and scoring system which as an integrated solution has potential to be better than Simply Slalom, but it is worth noting that almost everyone else uses Simply Slalom, and where we have PU and host division paddlers in the same number, or officials in different classes and divisions in the same number it does warn us on import, although the options it then gives us need more documentation (are you reading Mr Chair? I keep forgetting that this baffles most organisers, i really should send it as a suggestion!). If we accept the offer to auto assign individual numbers, it then checks against it's own internal bib list which is 4 digits long and recognises each division and class a subrange within the 9999 allocations available - in fact SS internally uses these numbers anyway, but converts them back to division and bib for the operator to work with and for the results. So that could help manage the clashes within the software (and I'm sure if you contact the chair he will tell you the unique number ranges he uses) but still doesn't help with the bank side issues of judges noting down change of classes and being aware that numbers may repeat several timnes through the day. The thing is, most of us are used to that and when going back for a number will remember or notice and ask something like is that the one that was after X or the one after Y if we aren't sure.
If you really want a challenge come and run a Scottish Champs some time, anyone from any division can enter (plus guests). "We have 2 K1W in bib 2, we will need to assign different bib to 1 of them, oh but one is Jane, everyone knows Jane she doesn't need a different bib". Well, thats all very well until as you say it is reduced to looking back at bib numbers written on a judging or timing sheet with no context to help... To complicate further, backup times for the champs are just done on Timy with just a bib number typed in - no class designator, so have to read the entire print out or memory and choose by the order in the sequence...
Also, be aware you don;t have to accept the default running order - I don't know if you normally swap it around, but I usually look at the paddlers doubling up in K1 and C1 and work out the class order that gives them generally the biggest gaps between runs, which usually means the smaller classes get split around a bigger class which might also help with spreading the repeated bib numbers out a bit.
Re: Clashing bib numbers
So we had this with Vets bibs up until this year, where we used to have a single run of purple bibs, rather than the different colours we have now.
We had two issues with the single run of bibs, you had to change the range each year depending on the number of paddlers in each class, and worst case if you suddenly have an influx and run out of numbers you end up all over the place (at one point we had Vets K1M from 1-60, then a few at 120+).
Also, it's nice for those at the top of the division to have low bib numbers. I know from what I've heard from some that they are quite motivated by a low bib number.
We had two issues with the single run of bibs, you had to change the range each year depending on the number of paddlers in each class, and worst case if you suddenly have an influx and run out of numbers you end up all over the place (at one point we had Vets K1M from 1-60, then a few at 120+).
Also, it's nice for those at the top of the division to have low bib numbers. I know from what I've heard from some that they are quite motivated by a low bib number.
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Mike Mitchell
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm
Re: Clashing bib numbers
The Only suggestion I have is at the Judges meeting, make it clear of the problems you could have and ask them to put class or Bib colour clearly on the sheet when there is a change in the race Class.
Also ask your Jury to walk the bank and make sure Judges are recording the above along with penalties.
As a Vet paddler with Bib 1, I nearly always have C1 L Bib 1 follow me down the course as there is only One of them and after that is quite often C1M bib 1. So if I hit a gate I put a protest in and quite often get if off because they look at the wrong Paddlers. There must be an advantage of having the same Numbers
Also ask your Jury to walk the bank and make sure Judges are recording the above along with penalties.
As a Vet paddler with Bib 1, I nearly always have C1 L Bib 1 follow me down the course as there is only One of them and after that is quite often C1M bib 1. So if I hit a gate I put a protest in and quite often get if off because they look at the wrong Paddlers. There must be an advantage of having the same Numbers