hi telemark thingy - what do others think about it

c1mini · Post by **c1mini** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:42 am

i have been told by several people that its bad, and i know that and have no intentions of starting but what do others think. when u watch all the top people, not so much in england anymore but in different countries. for those taht dont know, this is a high telemark

John Sturgess · Post by **John Sturgess** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:35 am

Sorry - but as one of the few around who was actually taught to do a high telemark - in 1976 - no it ain't.

In a telemark (low, high, or hanging) the blade was placed flat on the water out to the side, and you leant on it, while sweeping the blade round to the stern. Yes, in the hanging telemark the hand went behind the head - but that is the only real point of similarity

This photo shows what can happen when a paddler does a (bow-rudder; duffek; pivot-stroke) without turning his torso towards the paddle

c1mini · Post by **c1mini** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:33 am

thats what i was taught a high telemark was, and i bad for you, because of the potential to injure yourself

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:10 pm

John, I see your 1976 and raise it, BEFORE starting slalom in '73' I was taught that in telemark turns you swept your paddle towards the FRONT of the boat, not the back.

I stopped using this type of turn as
a) It was slower than bowrudder (Duffeck etc)

b) They (especially low telemarks) were seen as a safety conscious whimp move, and I could not take the mickey taking :ohwell:
c) High telemarks in low rivers were (apocryphally) renowned for shoulder dislocations
d) I saw the light and took up C1/C2, where moves were combined and the only moves that I repeated often, that had names were 'air brace' and 'roll'!

Still not a fan of giving names to particular combinations, prefering to describe the effect I am after, and the combination of basic moves that I try for. Of course this training aid is why I now paddle in slow motion (even when flat out!)

c1mini · Post by **c1mini** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:07 pm

Canadian PAddler wrote:John, I see your 1976 and raise it, BEFORE starting slalom in '73' I was taught that in telemark turns you swept your paddle towards the FRONT of the boat, not the back.

I stopped using this type of turn as
a) It was slower than bowrudder (Duffeck etc)
b) They (especially low telemarks) were seen as a safety conscious whimp move, and I could not take the mickey taking :ohwell:
c) High telemarks in low rivers were (apocryphally) renowned for shoulder dislocations
d) I saw the light and took up C1/C2, where moves were combined and the only moves that I repeated often, that had names were 'air brace' and 'roll'!

Still not a fan of giving names to particular combinations, prefering to describe the effect I am after, and the combination of basic moves that I try for. Of course this training aid is why I now paddle in slow motion (even when flat out!)

that is basically what i was told, but still u see the best paddlers use it....

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:43 pm

Not seen a really good paddler use a telemark since low volume boats come in.

I agree with John, the picture is not a telemark, but is a bow rudder.

The posiiton shown allows the paddel to be more vertical as the off side hand is over the other side of the boat, and to reach further forwards (pivoting the blade around the on side hand).
This also puts the paddler in a good position to start paddling forward rapidly, look at the hand position and think of starting a forward stroke.

This position requires a fair degree of joint strength, and suppleness. AND I bet you will not see this being used anywhere shallow. Just think of the dynamics in the over extended shoulder when the top hand moves up and back whilst the boat and body move forwards. . . .

Having said all that, and having watched a fair number of reasonable paddlers, I do not think any of them do anything so trite as a 'Telemark', in fact the paddler shown probably did a stroke that was a combination of bow rudder, bow draw, running draw and forward stroke all in one, and di not think what he was doing other than planting the paddle and pulling past it!
This sort of thing comes naturally to 'REAL MEN' (those that paddle canadian, as we are always stirring the water on one side or the other and I rarely do a straight forward stroke.

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:23 pm

It's a sure fire way of popping out your shoulder if you get it wrong, as with the shoulder so far extended you loose the strength in the muscle groups to recover :embarassed:

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:38 pm

no way, thats a ruged bow rudder, it means you can put the shaft under the pole and ultimately get really tight in to the gate,
it is good for when your tired because it is in a locked possition
there is not much surface of the blade facing forwards so it means you get lots of speed through and out of brake outs and it locks the boats line so you wont drift sideways much.

c1mini · Post by **c1mini** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:48 pm

the position in which the hand is putting the shoulder at risk of it popping out of the join, being at the most vulnerable point. so wouldnt it be a lot easier to keep the hand infront of ur head and not risk the injury and maybe lose like what- a second, if that.

-John u dont teach moves like this anymore tho do you, so surely u see that this isnt safe

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:35 pm

c1mini · Post by **c1mini** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:29 pm

Guest wrote:

that is more what i mean. that is baaaaaad

g_c1 · Post by **g_c1** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:59 pm

I believe that bow rudders behind the head in general can be dangerous. However i belive if you have rotation as you bow rudder then that is ok.

As a c1 i do lots of bow rudders behind the head and find then far more effective that bow rudders in frount of your forhead (text book way) because you can have more contact with the poles and also you can get greater power and range out the stroke if you have rotation.

I find bow rudders level with ur forehead restricting because it is super hard to get your paddle fully upright from this position and have your paddle behind the deck for a big turn.

However i would not recomend doing this unless you know what your doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also far forward bow rudders can maintain running speed well especially on staggers. so overall chose the type of bow rudder for the right situation.

Be carefull and know what strokes do what and what there advantages are.

Dan G

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:05 pm

I have read a lot of people saying this is a really dangerous way of doing a bow rudder, because you might pop your shoulder, but I don't know of any real live instances. A year or so ago there was a picture of Paul Ratcliffe doing something like this at the Pyramid pool, on the UK Rivers Guidbook forum, and the talk was of how dangerous it was. But Paul injured his shoulder playboating!

does anyone have any actual experience of an injury caused by doing a bow rudder in this manner. It is an important question, because top paddlers wouldn't do it if it wasn't effective, but it can't be coached if it is dangerous.

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:18 am

Just a point,,, is the bow at the front of the boat ???

Looking at the pictures they look more like bum rudders to me in more ways than one. :;):

The receipe to disslocate your shoulder is to try and emulate the picture's,, but don't blame me when you are in agony and can not paddle :laugh:

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:47 pm

Back in the distant past, on SHALLOW river, I remember a dislocation from this sort of move on the way into a breakout. Basically paddle stopped, boat kept going downriver - OUCH! Never heard of it affetcing a proper (eg Canadian) paddler though.

The pictures so far have shown going into/out of gates, not the traditional telemark breakout, and in deepish water. So less danger of the bottom going the opposite way at great speed, and more chance of using the rotation/lock to keep the paddle rigid.