In view of discussion and requests for motions prior to ACM and in response to some of the comments on previous DV threads.
Amendment to UK 34.6
Amend paragraph :
"In all division when there are three or more eligible competitors, organisers shall provide a prize for the Junior competitor who gains the best score during the event in each category and a prize for the best Junior (J16) performance which has not attracted any other prize. Organisers may, at their discretion, provide a prize for the best J12 and J14 performance, but if they do so should state the rules for deciding the winner in the start list."
to:
In all division when there are three or more eligible competitors, organisers shall provide prizes for the Junior and Veteran (DV) competitor who gain the best score during the event in each category and a prize for the best Junior (J16) performance which has not attracted any other prize. Organisers may, at their discretion, provide prizes in additional age categories (e.g.: J12; J14; V50 etc.), but if they do so should publish the rules for deciding the winner in the start list (where practical) and at the event.
Anyone willing to second that and we can draft and submit a motion this week.
Regards
Craig Douglas
Aberdeen Kayak Club
AGM Vet Motion - Any Backers
Hi Craig. I will second virtually anything that has age banded Vets mentioned in it. However, the mention you make does not refer to its actual introduction. I think that before you can refer to an age band Vet class, the age bands need to actually exist. So aside from seconding your Motion I will propose one as follows:-
"Dispense with Veteran category and create age banding within existing DV category in all Divisions."
I am not well versed in these matters nor knowledgeable regarding how one manages to bring changes about so I will leave that for someone who does this sort of thing. To assist them, I will add the following views. I consider that starting the Veteran category at 35 is pretty well established and generally accepted so no real need or noises from anyone calling for change there. Various sports have different age banding for Veterans. Given a datum of 35 for starters I suppose the first logical decision to make is 5 or 10 year bands. I doubt the sport has the volume of competitors to justify 5 year bands so it maybe preferred to consider 10 year bands of V35, V45, V55, V65. Alternatively the V35 could run to V40 and then have V50, V60 etc. I am not really fussy how big the bands are or where they fall just so long as they are narrower than the current 35 to the grave!
On the subject of prizes and the relevance of events being quorate or not, the introduction of more age bands in the Vets class would have the effect of reducing the numbers in the various bands. Even if there is only one attending in a class, that competitor is still the winner - in all sports! Winners should get something and even if 2nd and 3rd get a certificate it would be worth the expense and effort of turning up and paddling!
I think anything would be better than the current system so change is an absolute must in whatever form it takes. Some of the DV's began a private competition to determine success so it is pretty obvious that the system is not creating fair and good competition by formal organisation alone. Formal organisation needs to change and if those who make decisions read all our posts here over the last season they would surely discover a great deal of discontent and what people are suggesting to rectify things. Age banding is hardly a novel idea. I believe it exists in slalom on the continent in 5 year bands so surely it is a reasonable and acceptable suggestion to incorporate 10 years bands in the UK. I do hope enough people agree and it comes together because another season like this one would would not entice many to bother again.
"Dispense with Veteran category and create age banding within existing DV category in all Divisions."
I am not well versed in these matters nor knowledgeable regarding how one manages to bring changes about so I will leave that for someone who does this sort of thing. To assist them, I will add the following views. I consider that starting the Veteran category at 35 is pretty well established and generally accepted so no real need or noises from anyone calling for change there. Various sports have different age banding for Veterans. Given a datum of 35 for starters I suppose the first logical decision to make is 5 or 10 year bands. I doubt the sport has the volume of competitors to justify 5 year bands so it maybe preferred to consider 10 year bands of V35, V45, V55, V65. Alternatively the V35 could run to V40 and then have V50, V60 etc. I am not really fussy how big the bands are or where they fall just so long as they are narrower than the current 35 to the grave!
On the subject of prizes and the relevance of events being quorate or not, the introduction of more age bands in the Vets class would have the effect of reducing the numbers in the various bands. Even if there is only one attending in a class, that competitor is still the winner - in all sports! Winners should get something and even if 2nd and 3rd get a certificate it would be worth the expense and effort of turning up and paddling!
I think anything would be better than the current system so change is an absolute must in whatever form it takes. Some of the DV's began a private competition to determine success so it is pretty obvious that the system is not creating fair and good competition by formal organisation alone. Formal organisation needs to change and if those who make decisions read all our posts here over the last season they would surely discover a great deal of discontent and what people are suggesting to rectify things. Age banding is hardly a novel idea. I believe it exists in slalom on the continent in 5 year bands so surely it is a reasonable and acceptable suggestion to incorporate 10 years bands in the UK. I do hope enough people agree and it comes together because another season like this one would would not entice many to bother again.
Peter Parker - 12 gate courses are plenty long enough!
-
Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
Flipping tight to draft a motion, and get it approved by the committee of at least one club before the deadline. That's the rules. Far be it from me to suggest that the motion could be placed on the expectation of getting a club comittee mandate for this as you would have to be ecomomical with the truth when submitting it.
So Seedy, if Aberdeen want to propose that, get it signed by two people represneting the club and emailed to Jim Croft ASAP. If there is not going to be any Aberdeen attendence at the ACM, then I am sure that at least one soft southern windbag can be relied on to talk for the motion. . .
Do not worry too much about the wording, or the actual rule changes, these can be polished either in or after the meeting, as long as then intent is clear.
So Seedy, if Aberdeen want to propose that, get it signed by two people represneting the club and emailed to Jim Croft ASAP. If there is not going to be any Aberdeen attendence at the ACM, then I am sure that at least one soft southern windbag can be relied on to talk for the motion. . .
Do not worry too much about the wording, or the actual rule changes, these can be polished either in or after the meeting, as long as then intent is clear.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
-
djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
Do we really need trophies and paper certificates at our age? Personally I think its a waste of money and time that can be better spent elsewhere by the clubs running the events especially if you expect one for each band. It will just drive up the cost of entering in the end.
Personally a bit of paper saying I came 2nd DV at an event isn't going to make the expense and effort worthwhile for me.
I'm quite happy with the suggestions of a league system, different bands to help individuals rate their performance easily. That should just be a case of the current ranking system being tweaked to work out more classes.
I'm all for 1st DV and a DV prize at the oscars would be good. Doubt I'll ever see either but I'm sure it will make someone happy.
Personally a bit of paper saying I came 2nd DV at an event isn't going to make the expense and effort worthwhile for me.
I'm quite happy with the suggestions of a league system, different bands to help individuals rate their performance easily. That should just be a case of the current ranking system being tweaked to work out more classes.
I'm all for 1st DV and a DV prize at the oscars would be good. Doubt I'll ever see either but I'm sure it will make someone happy.
-
Dave Royle
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:02 pm
I was thinking the same thing as you Duncan. If I wanted a prize, I can go and buy one and save myself all the hastle.djberriman wrote:Do we really need trophies and paper certificates at our age?
I prefer to have a race with other like minded folk of similar(ish) ability and don't need to come away from the experience with a prize.
Come on, we're grownups now. The prize on offer is not going to be a Lotus Elise is it. Let the clubs keep their hard earned cash for something more useful like coaching your grandkids.
-
Jerry Tracey
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:09 am
I personally have greatly enjoyed padling in the veteran category this season!! I raced seriously as a DV up until last year, but no longer have time for fitness orientated training owing to other commitments (a part-time PhD.). I changed to veteran status and have appreciated the challenge of paddling interesting courses and the camaraderie at the start and finish, without the pressure of serious racing. I support the general suggestions made regarding age categories, etc. etc., but I would be disappointed to see the separate P/Div.1 Veteran category extinguished!
In the original discussion on this - started just over a year ago - extra prizes for Vets [at every race] wasn't one of the priorities. I agree that there is no need for this.
The points raised were mainly along the lines of:
1. Having separate age-band system for the DVs - as found in other sports - and along with this, that 35 was perhaps too young these days to become a Vet. Hence, for example, 40-50, 50-60, 60+ were suggested. In this way, paddlers could compare their results/points against someone of a similar age. The only extra prize would be a one-off, end-o-season award for top in each bracket. Operating this scheme would require us to indicate the age band on the entry card rather than just DV. That was clearly going to be one of the problems - some people admitted that they wouldn't want it known that they were over 40, 50, etc.
2. Changing things in a way that there was no need for a separate Vets league. Various reasons were given for this, but mainly that there is very low participation.
I was originally all for elimination of the separate Vets league but have since changed my mind. For all the same reasons that Jerry has put so well [except for the part-time Ph.D. bit !], I am even thinking of moving over next year.
The points raised were mainly along the lines of:
1. Having separate age-band system for the DVs - as found in other sports - and along with this, that 35 was perhaps too young these days to become a Vet. Hence, for example, 40-50, 50-60, 60+ were suggested. In this way, paddlers could compare their results/points against someone of a similar age. The only extra prize would be a one-off, end-o-season award for top in each bracket. Operating this scheme would require us to indicate the age band on the entry card rather than just DV. That was clearly going to be one of the problems - some people admitted that they wouldn't want it known that they were over 40, 50, etc.
2. Changing things in a way that there was no need for a separate Vets league. Various reasons were given for this, but mainly that there is very low participation.
I was originally all for elimination of the separate Vets league but have since changed my mind. For all the same reasons that Jerry has put so well [except for the part-time Ph.D. bit !], I am even thinking of moving over next year.
-
Seedy Paddler
- Posts: 440
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 2:00 pm
Following review of the responses and given the effort required to provide a motion, then I will stop now and save the effort for something more rewarding!
My proposal was based on the fact that we have a DV classification that is not a minority (circa 25% of K1M) but has no requirement for any seperate recognition. We already have a requirement to reward Veteran Class which only comprise 13% of the overall Veterans. My intention was to try and set up a system where the Veteran award went to the most deserving and not just the single paddler in the purple bid irrespective of other results.
I didn't include Age Bands as I am not actually that bothered about the banding, my objective was to put that to the event organiser who will best know the demographics and attraction of their event. We already have a senior veteran prize at Seaton Park with an Anc class and a prize for the paddling OAP. All a bit of fun and a recognition that slalom paddling is not just kids and the superfit athlete. My experience for the past few years is that we get a healthy turnout in Div 2 DV circa half a dozen paddlers (in Scotland), to age band that and we may end up with 1 or 2 in each category. I can usually work out whose results I need to compare with and as we are not in it for the prizes I guess nothing much actually needs to change!
As for the Veteran class, I can see some merit in the Div 1/P, but otherwise you don't need to be training to hold your own. Up to the individual opt in and compete with the youngsters and athletes, opt out and protect your status. Managed to do that quite effectively by putting in effort when needed and finding something else to do when there is a risk of promotion ??? Now up to 30 years as a Div 2 paddler :p
CD
My proposal was based on the fact that we have a DV classification that is not a minority (circa 25% of K1M) but has no requirement for any seperate recognition. We already have a requirement to reward Veteran Class which only comprise 13% of the overall Veterans. My intention was to try and set up a system where the Veteran award went to the most deserving and not just the single paddler in the purple bid irrespective of other results.
I didn't include Age Bands as I am not actually that bothered about the banding, my objective was to put that to the event organiser who will best know the demographics and attraction of their event. We already have a senior veteran prize at Seaton Park with an Anc class and a prize for the paddling OAP. All a bit of fun and a recognition that slalom paddling is not just kids and the superfit athlete. My experience for the past few years is that we get a healthy turnout in Div 2 DV circa half a dozen paddlers (in Scotland), to age band that and we may end up with 1 or 2 in each category. I can usually work out whose results I need to compare with and as we are not in it for the prizes I guess nothing much actually needs to change!
As for the Veteran class, I can see some merit in the Div 1/P, but otherwise you don't need to be training to hold your own. Up to the individual opt in and compete with the youngsters and athletes, opt out and protect your status. Managed to do that quite effectively by putting in effort when needed and finding something else to do when there is a risk of promotion ??? Now up to 30 years as a Div 2 paddler :p
CD
I just hope someone in the working party or someone on the committee speaks up for some changes at the AGM - any changes! I will trust either entity to "do the right thing" and make changes based on the comments set out here throughout the season as it is pretty clear that some are needed. Age banding certainly and ideally just the one "type" of Vet rather than Vet and DV Vet.
I personally fail to see the point of entering a "competition" if there is no intention to actually "compete" with others. Following on from that, those others should be competitors who it is "fair and reasonable" to be competing against. If either of the above two fundamental statements are untrue then lets have no gender, boat class or age distinction and all paddle down the course one at a time without bothering about being judged or timed!
Slalom racing should, like all other sports, be a fair competition. If some wish to just amble down the course and do not mind what their result is, that is surely their choice but they must equally, surely, be in the minority. All I am saying is I do not think it is fair and reasonable that someone like me, at 52 years old (as I will be next season), should be competing against others almost two decades younger than me, in the same class. Especially when other classes are separated by two years!
Unfortunately, people need to be my age to really understand this perspective. The brain is as young as ever (even as foolish sometimes!), but getting the bones, muscles, cardiac and respiritory system to keep up is an entirely different matter! (Hence my standard signature in this Forum since I joined!).
So, older members of the working party and committee are you listening? I do hope so because if this matter is left to the young ones (its impossible to say that without thinking of Cliff! If you do not undertand that you ARE one of the young ones! lol) then I doubt change will come about. Maybe when they reach my age as they find it hard work to even get off the sofa, they will think "Crumbs! How on earth did those Vets of yesteryear paddle the same comps as I did when I was half this age!? No wonder they were calling for age banding!"
PP
I personally fail to see the point of entering a "competition" if there is no intention to actually "compete" with others. Following on from that, those others should be competitors who it is "fair and reasonable" to be competing against. If either of the above two fundamental statements are untrue then lets have no gender, boat class or age distinction and all paddle down the course one at a time without bothering about being judged or timed!
Slalom racing should, like all other sports, be a fair competition. If some wish to just amble down the course and do not mind what their result is, that is surely their choice but they must equally, surely, be in the minority. All I am saying is I do not think it is fair and reasonable that someone like me, at 52 years old (as I will be next season), should be competing against others almost two decades younger than me, in the same class. Especially when other classes are separated by two years!
Unfortunately, people need to be my age to really understand this perspective. The brain is as young as ever (even as foolish sometimes!), but getting the bones, muscles, cardiac and respiritory system to keep up is an entirely different matter! (Hence my standard signature in this Forum since I joined!).
So, older members of the working party and committee are you listening? I do hope so because if this matter is left to the young ones (its impossible to say that without thinking of Cliff! If you do not undertand that you ARE one of the young ones! lol) then I doubt change will come about. Maybe when they reach my age as they find it hard work to even get off the sofa, they will think "Crumbs! How on earth did those Vets of yesteryear paddle the same comps as I did when I was half this age!? No wonder they were calling for age banding!"
PP
Peter Parker - 12 gate courses are plenty long enough!
I can see the sense of age-banded veterans, but personally I am not bothered about prizes, recognition on the results list is good enough. Saying that, I already know who I am racing against when I race and I am happy if I beat them and less happy if it goes the other way.
Though I do think it might be a nice idea to have age-banded end of season trophies, that might be a bit more meaningful, or age-banded vets trophies at the national veterans championships.
Though I do think it might be a nice idea to have age-banded end of season trophies, that might be a bit more meaningful, or age-banded vets trophies at the national veterans championships.
-
djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
Guess I've said it before but surely the Vets class could be replaced by open, allowing anyone (of any age) to race who wants too but in a non divisional setting.
If you want rankings, prizes, end of year trophies etc then be a DV otherwise you can enter an open class.
I agree with Dave Brad here - most DV's I know do the same - they know who they are racing against and monitor their own results in relation to those paddlers.
I think there was general agreement on having a banded DV league produced like the Junior leagues so its possible to easily see where you are in your age group - this could then be used to award end if year trophies etc as seen fit.
If you want rankings, prizes, end of year trophies etc then be a DV otherwise you can enter an open class.
I agree with Dave Brad here - most DV's I know do the same - they know who they are racing against and monitor their own results in relation to those paddlers.
I think there was general agreement on having a banded DV league produced like the Junior leagues so its possible to easily see where you are in your age group - this could then be used to award end if year trophies etc as seen fit.