Is a 50 second penalty enough for missing a gate?

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:17 pm

The guidance for course design is to target a 100 sec course, in which case a missed gate is 50% of the allotted time and therefore missing a gate should remove the competitor from the real competition.

The course designer should be looking to ensure that the course does not lend itself to deliberately missing gates, this can be done and I have managed on courses from flat water at Seaton through Div 2 events on Deeside (Royal) to courses on Tully.

As a coach I encourage paddlers to get on with the course. Why - because it is a lot simpler to work out the impact of little corrections to lines etc for the next attempt and where an improved run will place than working out a "what if" when the paddler has spent an age trying to get back for no benefit.

As a paddler the must do all the gates no matter what are a pain! I am not particularly fast but even I have caught up with paddlers that faff about re-negotiating gates. I know that I am not fit enough for multiple re-runs and I value my kit so I back off.

If you are that far off the pace then man-up and work on your speed. We highlight the risk factor and develop ever more conviluted methods of delaying promotion. When will we realise that the best thing is to encourage lesser experienced paddlers to miss out crux moves and build up confidence in the more difficult waters. With confidence they are then better able to attempt the crux move and have already developed speed and skill to cope and compete.

Top level competitors need recognise and error and switch to an alternative game plan instantly. Teaching paddlers to thrash around trying to complete all the gates only develops blind stubborness and a failure to recognise viable racing alternatives.

Quite happy with things as they stand

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:42 am

There are (as always) two sides to this. On Sunday many of the women missed gates 10 and 11.

-Some were accidental (try for the breakout and spend a minute paddling in the bottom of the eddy before accepting that you cant get into it and heading off backwards),
- some were deliberate (close your eyes, hold the paddle horizontal and look pleased to be heading for 12),
- some. . . down the drop and put a bow rudder in in the middle of the current - it has no effect, but is that deliberate miss or not?

As a judge if there was disqualification for deliberately missing, how do I differentiate? benefit of doubt to me would give anyone who nodded towards the gate a chance.

BUT some of the through the middle brigade then caught up with paddlers who had made good, but slow, attempts at 10 and 11, and were then in the breakout below, having again dropped low. Not fair on the paddler still trying to do the course properly - Declare an interest, this was the circumstance for my last ever rerun, I was whistled off, and so kn***ered teh rerun was a slow motion action replay of how NOT to do the event, (yes it was slower than teh whistled off run!)

So we cant win

This debate has - to my knowledge been going since the 70s and a course on Tully with a breakout on river right - all the way right, then a break out on the far left bank, then a forward down on the river right. This was in the days of a penalty on each pole, so many of the C1s decided not to risk the double crossing, with the possibility of up to 40 seconds on penalties (2 outside touches - ask at your own risk). The paddler who went all the way, got a penalty and was beaten then protested under the only rule that could apply - trying to win by unfair means.

As mentioned by others, those with 50s are not 'trying to win by unfair means', they are generally trying to survive!

So I am forced to agree with Dave Royle and Seedy (goes against the grain but there you are) 50 is enough of a penalty, BUT ask our nervous paddelrs to be aware of the effect of their shorter course on those in front and give way to them rather than hampering them - if you can.

c1champ · Post by **c1champ** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:29 pm

I agree with cat about that a paddler shouldn't be above another paddler that hasnt got 50's if they have got 50's. but i dont think you can just shove them to the bottom of the list just cause they have a 50 by mistake. If the this person get lots of 50's on both runs cause the couldnt be bothered to go to a gate. yes put the at the bottom but if someone has worked really hard the whole course and the just misses a gate by i faction of an inch, then get it fine on second run. this is really unfair to put them at the bottom!

for example Me and another Memeber from my club missed gate 14 at tryweryn cause we didnt push far enough out of gate 13! An easy mistake to make, dont you agree? . We both learnt from the mistake and got it fine on second run. So i dont think we should be put to the bottom for a mistake!

I think discaulification is a stupid idea. 50's is far enough of a penality i think! everyone missies gate sometime even the top lads do! So you cant just go didqualifying people here there and everywhere! some races half the feild would go. then that disagvantges the people that got the gates and did well cause they would get less points!

I think this is something that really need looking at! This happenes alot in lower divisions and div 1 women.

Steve

P.s excuse the spelling mistakes. it aint my fault. blame me school!

canoebabe88 · Post by **canoebabe88** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:42 pm

Those of you who were there at the weekend will of realised I was not the happiest person on the water but then again what else do you expect when I just got out of Div 2 and now I'm aloud down a Prem course.

My main aim of the weekend was to get down safe and alive and get the gates I could, in my eyes gate 10 and 11 were not there until my last run on Sunday and I did not have the confidence to attack the gates properly, I was fully aware that missing the gates would put me last as the other 2 could quite happily get all the gates but I was there for the experience on that kind of water and then hopefully I have learnt from that and its given me something to aim at for the rest of the season.

If I was told if I miss a gate I would be disqualified I wound pack all my kit up and never paddle slalom again, it did not matter how hard I tried I was never going to get all those gates unless I got out my boat and portaged back to the right Eddie to get them.

Even the top paddlers have bad days and miss judge gates and get a 50. the rules have changed so if you do miss a gate there is no need to just go straight home you have another chance.

That's my view.

Heather Slater C1W

Username · Post by **Username** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:51 pm

Oooh, I wasn't AT ALL suggesting that a 50 on one run only would put you at the bottom - I was talking about 'best runs' only; so if you had 50s on both runs; I meant merely if your best run includes a 50, you should be below those whose best run does not include a 50. I don't know how this would work if someone had 1 run which took 120 seconds and had a 50 second penalty (so total of 170) and one run which had no 50s, but took 180 seconds - as their 'best run' would be the one with the 50, which would put them at the bottom automatically, so they'd want to use their other run time instead.

I don't think disqualification is the answer either.

All I would like would for people who have the guts/skill to get all the gates to get recognition for this, and not have to wonder whether after all, it might have been quicker to just miss them out.

Someone above mentioned it being annoying catching up other paddlers, reruns being tiring, etc; I was - perhaps mistakenly - under the impression that the ranking system was designed to mean that people race before and after people who are ranked next to them, therefore their overall speed should be similar so the people around you should probably not catch you up/be caught up. I'm sure it is annoying when slow people get in the way of you, but it's equally annoying when people behind you miss gates, catch you up as a result, and you are whistled off to allow them to pass because they're 'quicker' than you. This does happen a bit around where I'm ranked (the person ranked just above me is much quicker AND much better than me, so I'm not talking about me personally!) because there are some people who are slow, but doing all the course, and people who are fast, but can;t do all the gates - and as a result, end up with similar times, thus ranked next to each other; that's the nature of the middle/bottom end of Div 1 women, I find. Anyway, I'm not at all sure that has anything to do with the issue being discussed!

c1champ · Post by **c1champ** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:01 pm

Yer ok that gd plan. you could say in the role if you run without a 50 slower you take the run without the 50. but then it would be hard for the organiser or the computer program to work it out!. it would take some working out but we have a year before the next ACM to iron out all the problems but it is something that really need sorting!

c1champ · Post by **c1champ** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:06 pm

Yer i agree heather! if you know you are going to come ls that isnt a problem! everyone need to get experience on bigger river at some point and i think at a race is perfect cause you have gate to aim for and have safety at bottow as well!

oldschool · Post by **oldschool** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:42 pm

Following this weekends race i see a bigger issue.

This sunday course was very straight forward with no difficult crosses or breakouts. It was essentialy the route you would take if there were no gates up and you eddy hopped your way down the river (ok the spin at 18 and tightish 5-6 cross excepted).

Why are people in div 1 missing gates on what was until recently (when i gave up 8 years ago) a stretch of river that held div 2 races every year.

Surley we should be more focussed on improving the standard of the paddlers so that they don't need to miss gates on purpose than whether or not 50 seconds is a big enough penalty.

I find it incredable that i got re-ranked in div 1 and manage to acheive consistant 500+ point results doing one canoe polo session a fortnight and carrying a spare 20kg of me down the course in the process. Surley this can't be right.

Just a thought!

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:18 pm

The ranking system does not unfortunately work regarding speed of paddlers. I was promoted to Div 2 at the end of the season and did (as I remember) the last race (or perhaps two) at the end of the season, thus I was ranked with people who had done a full season and achieved the same points. The result was at nearly every event I was catching up much slower paddlers. Unfair on them and me.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:20 pm

PS. The proposed 50 rule is not hard for a computer program to figure out, it would simply mean sorting by number of 50's first and then their time/points total rather than just the time/points total. Its a pretty simple change.

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:55 am

For clarification purposes, when I suggested disqualification, I did not mean from the event, only that specific run. If you get a 50 on both runs, this will simply allow you to go home early and get some more practice done for the next competition

Your event will not be spoiled by disqualification as you will have still run the full course a couple of times at least and it will only be your result that is spoiled - rightly, as you did not complete the course as required. No judging issues, no complexities. Faced with the run effectively not counting if a gate is missed, it should motivate paddlers to try harder to get through them all.

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:43 am

At prem level a 50 is pretty much equivalent to disqualification for the run in any case.

Lower down the ranks it could prove detrimental to disqualify for a missed gate. There will be paddlers at div 3/4 level who swim on one run but can't/don't get a gate and are therefore disqualified on the next run (or worse, swim again in the attempt to get that gate). Most will not see the event as good experience but are more likely to see the sport as something they can't do and give up before they've really started. Disqualification for a missed gate at this level could be a disaster for the sport.

With regard to ranking those with 50s below those without 50s, I'm not sure this works either. The fast confident paddler who half heads that gate or just misses the breakout will be beaten by the slow nervous paddler who just chooses the long slow option each time and eventually gets all the gates. I'm just not sure this is an improvement, just a different inequality. I think Dave is right at we should just stick to the ICF rules of 50 for a missed gate.

c1champ · Post by **c1champ** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:33 pm

Its a good point Dee. Diqualification would destroy the sport. some point are better than non and people would not pay the money if there is a chance of a 50! the sport is to expensive to get diqualified for a mistake! Say Peter you drive all the way to tully in that expensive car of your! You pay your £18 or whatever it is to enter and you get diqualified. So you have driven 8 hours paid about £100+ on pertol accomadation and entry all wasted cause you made a mistake both runs!

I think the plan for the 50's dee was that if you get a 50 on both runs you would go to the bottom! not just one but you have a good point!

JamesH · Post by **JamesH** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:45 pm

Ah, Dee - at last a decent argument for not ranking runs with 50s below runs that haven't. However, I would make the argument that if a 'confident' paddler got a 50 on his/her first run because s/he took too finer line, and then did the same mistake on their second run, I would submit that they learnt nothing from their first run, thus again, do not deserve to come above paddlers that made all the gates.

The simple fact of the matter for me, is that competitors who deliberately do not attempt gates are cheating and cheating should not be a part of any sport.

If paddlers are being promoted to divisions where they cannot handle the water to such an extent that they are unable to attempt certain gates, then as far as I am concerned, this suggests something systemically wrong with the whole slalom ranking system as it now stands.

I personally have had made 50s awarded against me in my mediocre and ongoing slalom career, and I would have no issue with being awarded a result below those that completed all the gates. They handled the course, I didn't.

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:32 pm

For clarification purposes, when I suggested disqualification, I did not mean from the event, only that specific run. If you get a 50 on both runs, this will simply allow you to go home early and get some more practice done for the next competition Your event will not be spoiled by disqualification as you will have still run the full course a couple of times at least and it will only be your result that is spoiled - rightly, as you did not complete the course as required. No judging issues, no complexities. Faced with the run effectively not counting if a gate is missed, it should motivate paddlers to try harder to get through them all.

So my Arachnid friend, Cat moves from being 18/26 to 16/16, points gained change from 35 (less than some beastly people who had the temerity to miss a gate) to 6. 40% of your starters go home with a wasted weekend, many of which resolve not to return or to take up an alternative post. The winners are.... ???

Having a look at the ranking lists we can see that Cat ended last season and remains this season nicely inbetween bibs 28 & 31. Results to date are similar so it becomes apparent that her rescue plans on the Tryweryn added some 70 secs to expected race time circa +50%. Way off the pace it was a bad run! Somehow we should reward that over someone who paddled at race pace but perhaps was unlucky with the swing of a pole (collision or wind assisted or both) and the view of a judge (was the head in or out of the gate?) which even when contested results in a 50.

If anyone wants to trawl through the guestbook on Campbells site you will find some fairly damning criticism. However if you look at his results (arguably currently the best slalom kayak paddler in the UK) you will see that he can match the best in the world. Yet he does produce some poor results - look at the runs he matches the best when he takes risks and they come off, he drops out when he takes risks and they fail. A trait that is in common with many of the top paddlers. the objective is to get all the gates as fast as possible, a 50 is more than enough to penalise a failing. Otherwise we end up coaching to be safe and conservative with the prime objective of getting all the gates.

As I have stated keep the status quo and work to improve and not seek excuses for your bad decisions!