C1W points - Points and Promotion

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:23 pm

Well, we are well into the first year of C1W, and without decrying the efforts of those that came up with the original points system, it has become plain that it needs amending.

There has not been a single event yet where a Div 2/3 C1W has scored maximum points at a division 2 event. However there have been plenty of cases where C1W has scored 500 points at a div 3, and many more at div 2/3s where they would have scored 500 points when measured against the div 3s, but actually scored considerably less against the div 2s. Nevertheless, it is possible, if not fairly easy, for a C1W to get promoted to Prem/1 by racing at 4 div 3 events.

My suggestion is that instead of dividing the time by 108%, we divide it by 120% as a better comparison between the C1W and K1M classes. Looking back at this year's results to date, this will have allowed several C1Ws to score 1000 points, including Mallory and Alice at the 1/2 at HPP. No-one seeing those two race that day would argue that they belonged in div 2 rather than Prem/1, but both scored in the 700s under the current system. Promotion would be earnt by scoring 3,600 points in 4 races, or maximum points in 3 races, as it is for the K1M.

I'm inviting people to pick holes in the proposal, and once any problems have been ironed out, I will be putting this forward at the ACM.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:01 pm

I agree that something needs to be done and that the biggest issue is that you can get more points at a division 3 event than at a division 2 event (having been a victim of this myself!).

Just one question, how did you come up with the figure of 3600? How close would some of the other division 2 girls be to achieving the figure on this years results? The reason I am asking is because I think the figure needs to be achievable by a some of the girls that are currently division 2 but are capable of paddling on the division 1 water, so a careful balance needs to be met between the two.

ElaineF · Post by **ElaineF** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:10 pm

Hi,

Mallory did get 1000 points both days at HPP in July in the Div2 event as per the results and her resutant promotion ??

Elaine

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:30 pm

I missed the July HPP event. doh! I was only the organiser!

Mallory would have scored max points at the June HPP, as well as July, so she would have been promoted on the 3 max points rule under the 120% rule.

The only other C1Ws I have identified as having raced and got significant results at more than 2 Div2s are Wendy, Anna and Munchkin

By my reckoning, under the 120% rule, Fiona would have 3335 points, Anna 3428, and Munchkin 1592, which, hopefully without insulting anyone, is about where they are in terms of their ability.

ElaineF · Post by **ElaineF** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:54 pm

Hi Dave,
I wasn't going to highlight that fact!!

Mal didn't however get 1000 points in June only 714. Whether she might have got more had there been second runs we'll never know...

When reconsidering points need to remember to look Prem/1 races too and the differences of different race formats. Will be interesting to see the results of last weekend taking into account different calculations and different race entries .. though it could well take Dave Royle some time to work them out .. we're leaving that to him

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:10 pm

Hope Dave has a good supply of headache tablets to hand!

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:25 pm

Hi Dave, can you please provide a few more details about your proposal, e.g. inquorate event numbers, separate divisions, etc.? I'm struggling to work out the calculation used to achieve 3600 points at a mixture of Div 2 & Div 3 races. Perhaps some examples would help?

Personally, all I would like to see is for the rule to be changed to fall in line with the C2 points system. This would mean one less method of calculation for race organisers to work out, would bring in your 120% calculation which I think would be a fairer percentage, and would rule out 4 x Div 3 races achieving promotion as you would need 2100 instead of 1900 points (but not your 3600!!).

As for sorting out the points from championship format races, I think Dave Royle's final proposal should be adopted at the ACM to cover for this eventuality.

Mark

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:31 pm

The original points were put together on very sketchy information as few people were paddling C1W. There was a toss up between having a high factor (such as 1.2) and high points aim, or a low multiplier and lower points target. I went with the later with the aim of a) allowing the good woman kayaks to convert and possibly get promoted in 2 events and b) allowing those still unsure to stay in div 2 until they were secure enough to paddle prem water. I put it forward at the ACM and suggested then that we MUST review it in the light of experience.

That was then, this is now. The C1W standard has come on leaps and bounds, I would have been worried about a Munchkin C1 on a prem course this time last year, now my only worry is that I will not be able to beat her in a C1 ever again!

I suppose I am saying that, for what it is worth, I support the move now to a higher multiplier and a higher points target. The numbers I would like to see to convince me of the right level are:
- a comparison of the winning WC1 time to the winning K1M time, and the time needed to get into the final, and international result level. At the worlds these were 1.48 and 1.4 indicating that a fatcor of 1.3 is not over generous.
- Some statistics on how the change would have affected result this year, e.g. how many times this year C1W only got the minimum points of MK1, how many times under the new proposal more than 1 C1W would have got maximum scores. If the answers are 'lots' and 'never', then we should be going for it!
- Some idea of the number of extra promotions that would have resulted, and who, just to get a feeling for the standards, it would add to the conviction that we need this if those missing promotion are desperate for promotion and obviously capable of prem courses.

I do not have time to get in a boat at the moment, let alone crunch numbers, so I am hoping someone else can help here.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:24 pm

I am happy to crunch numbers on friday (off to the Tryweryn with Kate in my C1 tomorrow!) and send you the figures.

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:24 pm

Oh, and I forgot to add that C1 men only need to achieve the equivalent of 3400 points rather than 3600 points to gain promotion to Div 1 - but they don't have the benefit of a multiplier of course.

Mark

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:50 pm

But they have the benefit of getting top points if the event is quorate which the girls don't get...

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:51 pm

davebrads wrote:By my reckoning, under the 120% rule, Fiona would have 3335 points, Anna 3428, and Munchkin 1592, which, hopefully without insulting anyone, is about where they are in terms of their ability.

I think we will have to double check the figures, but by my reckoning (and this has only been done quickly) I have 1453 points at the moment and would have 2090 under the proposed points. Anna would have 2616 rather than 1750...???

However, just from looking at the pair of us it is clear that the proposed changes may help with the division 2/3 problem. Anna would go from having her top points being obtained at division 3 events (Marple) to being from division 2 events (Sowerby and Fairnilee) as would I (to a lesser extent).

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:56 pm

Mark Shaw wrote:Personally, all I would like to see is for the rule to be changed to fall in line with the C2 points system. This would mean one less method of calculation for race organisers to work out, would bring in your 120% calculation which I think would be a fairer percentage, and would rule out 4 x Div 3 races achieving promotion as you would need 2100 instead of 1900 points (but not your 3600!!).

Sorry, I am not sure how to multiple quote in one post so have lots of little posts, but I thought the promotion figure in the C2 was 2650 not 2100?

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:28 am

ElaineF wrote:Hi Dave,
I wasn't going to highlight that fact!!

Mal didn't however get 1000 points in June only 714. Whether she might have got more had there been second runs we'll never know...

I am having to pick this up at work, as my broadband is down at the moment, so I have some catching up to do.

What I was meaning was that Mallory would have scored 1000 points in June under the proposed 120% rule - so she would have been promoted on the Sunday of the July race anyway.

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:38 am

Mark Shaw wrote:Hi Dave, can you please provide a few more details about your proposal, e.g. inquorate event numbers, separate divisions, etc.? I'm struggling to work out the calculation used to achieve 3600 points at a mixture of Div 2 & Div 3 races. Perhaps some examples would help?

Personally, all I would like to see is for the rule to be changed to fall in line with the C2 points system. This would mean one less method of calculation for race organisers to work out, would bring in your 120% calculation which I think would be a fairer percentage, and would rule out 4 x Div 3 races achieving promotion as you would need 2100 instead of 1900 points (but not your 3600!!).

As for sorting out the points from championship format races, I think Dave Royle's final proposal should be adopted at the ACM to cover for this eventuality.

Mark

I think the only way to get sensible points is to always compare against the men, any other way will introduce too much variation, so whether an event is quorate or not is not a consideration.

I don't think that 2100 points is enough, I am keen that the promotion points level should stay equivalent to the K1M, but maybe adjust the divider to make it more achievable.

In my opinion you can't sensibly measure whether a boat is ready to go to Prem/1 by comparing against div 3s, it's just too easy to get maximum points, so I would set the promotion points so that it is impossible to get promoted with even a single div 3 race counting. I suggest this should apply to the C2s too, but I am not concerned about them at the moment.