Nine years ago we introduced in-season promotion to Prem for paddlers who could meet a very demanding target, giving them a real incentive to achieve and replacing an end-of-year committee process which, however honestly it was done, never really satisfied everyone.
Don’t underestimate the test the target presents. In simple terms it means being "on the podium" 5 times, or getting three wins. Some courses are regarded as "easy", but a top result at one of those is no good for promotion without top results on other courses.
Once again this year there is a proposal to go back to the old arrangement, changed only to the extent that there would be a fixed target above which promotion would be automatic and the committee might make additional promotions – the old system, really.
Andy Maddock has written a case for the change. With respect to Andy, although the issues he raises are important ones, I don’t think he has demonstrated that end-of-year promotion addresses them better than in-season promotion. I don’t want to pick his argument over line by line, but here are some of the issues he raises and another view of each one.
"Prior to 2001, Division one provided paddlers with a great apprenticeship". It still does. As far as I can tell no-one ever gets into Prem in the same year as they were promoted from Div 2. An analysis of the 21 paddlers in K1W, K1M and C1 promoted during 2009 shows that only 15 were "new" Prems who had come up through the divisions*. All of them had been in Div 1 for a year or more before they were promoted. Eight reached Div 1 during or before 2007, and seven got into Div 1 during 2008. Taking 2007, 2008 and 2009 together, and not counting any earlier races, each participated in an average of 24 Div 1 races. The least number before promotion to Prem was 11, the most 43. That is apprenticeship.
* 5 were re-promotions of demoted former Prems, and one was an Irish paddler given ranking status in Div 1 in 2008.
"Paddlers are promoted up through the divisions too quickly". I think I might agree if were were talking about how quickly paddlers get up to Div 1, but I think the above demonstrates that getting into Prem involves a long haul in Div 1.
"Learning to win is an important part of long term paddler development." No. Learning to win under pressure is an important part of long term paddler development. Sadly, while it’s nice to win a Div 1 race, for ambitious young paddlers the big prize, and the greatest source of pressure, is getting into Prem. Take the immediacy of promotion, today, away and you take the pressure off.
"As people get promoted out of division 1 through the season, the division technically becomes easier to win later on in the season." Probably partly true, but difficult to be sure of, because paddlers are developing throughout the season. But not material: if ten paddlers are promoted to Prem, it will almost always be the same paddlers who get up, whether in-season or at the end of the year.
"The current system often transitions people too quickly into an environment that paddlers are sometimes not ready for and this can lead to drop out from the sport." This might be true for paddlers promoted too quickly into Div 1. I think it’s more likely that, during the long wait for end of year promotion, a paddler who has achieved the target by July will lose motivation and may drift away.
"In season promotion creates an unstable environment over the season." A good thing too! An unstable environment is the nature of canoe slalom. Our top paddlers face a different mix of competitors, on different water, every time they race.
Please consider, also, that a Prem paddler demoted after an off season would face a whole year in Div 1 (taking those podium places off the developing paddlers) before he or she could get back where they belonged. And a paddler, ex-Prem or not, who showed supreme ability by winning three or even four races, but was then out of action due to injury, would not be promoted.
The in-season promotion system we have is tried and tested. It works well, it motivates paddlers, and it is completely open. Please vote to reject the proposal.
ACM Proposal to Scrap In_season Promotion to Prem - ACM Proposal to Scrap In_season Promotio
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Nick Penfold
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm
Here is Andy Maddock's paper in support of the proposal:
Why propose the removal of in season promotion from Division 1 to Premier?
In season promotion from division 1 to Premier was introduced for the 2001 season replacing the previous system that meant all classes waited to the end of season for promotion to Premier division.
This proposal to re-instate the end of season only promotion (in C1M,K1M and K1W) comes about for the following reasons:
- Prior to 2001, Division one provided paddlers with a great apprenticeship in division one which created a genuine competition within the division and taught people how to race and how to race consistently for podium positions.
- The current system does not support Long Term Athlete Development (LTAD) principles as many paddlers are promoted up through the divisions too quickly and lose the opportunity to develop their skills in a long term way. By ending in season promotion, paddlers are able to develop their skills in a consistent environment and also learn how to perform in races.
- The current system often transitions people too quickly into an environment that paddlers are sometimes not ready for and this can lead to drop out from the sport.
- Contrary to popular opinion, the re-instatement of promotion only at the end of season would not hold people back. Under the old system many of the top ranked performers in Division 1 broke straight into the top 20 in premier due to the experience they had gained in learning to win races at Division 1 level.
- Learning to win is an important part of long term paddler development, particularly those that may end up representing Great Britain. The proposed system will actually teach people to be winners in a consistent sense with valuable experience gained in a div 1 environment. Under the current system, there are paddlers who have progressed through the system who get to premier and may never have won a race and all of a sudden they are in premier coming in the bottom half – paddlers need to be motivated to participate and a firm ‘apprenticehip’ in Division 1 will give them the skills required in Premier.
- There is a different pressure upon paddlers when going for wins and the psychological experience gained in division 1 is valuable in preparing people to perform at the highest level in Premier.
- The system of in season promotion creates an unstable environment over the season which makes it hard for paddlers to set a benchmark. As people get promoted out of division 1 through the season, the division technically becomes easier to win later on in the season. This does not promote a consistent level of performer into the premier division which should remain as the highest level in our sport.
- This would also allow paddlers to compete in more than one class again which would improve them as overall paddlers and assist in allowing them to be the best that they can be.
In summary, the proposal to re-instate end of season promotion only to Division 1 (K1M, C1M, K1W) comes in order to best prepare paddlers for their long term development as this creates genuine competition and the ability for paddlers to learn to win and perform consistently under pressure so that upon promotion to Premier they will enjoy the experience and continue to participate in our sport.
I would urge you to support this motion for the long term development and retention of paddlers in our sport.
Why propose the removal of in season promotion from Division 1 to Premier?
In season promotion from division 1 to Premier was introduced for the 2001 season replacing the previous system that meant all classes waited to the end of season for promotion to Premier division.
This proposal to re-instate the end of season only promotion (in C1M,K1M and K1W) comes about for the following reasons:
- Prior to 2001, Division one provided paddlers with a great apprenticeship in division one which created a genuine competition within the division and taught people how to race and how to race consistently for podium positions.
- The current system does not support Long Term Athlete Development (LTAD) principles as many paddlers are promoted up through the divisions too quickly and lose the opportunity to develop their skills in a long term way. By ending in season promotion, paddlers are able to develop their skills in a consistent environment and also learn how to perform in races.
- The current system often transitions people too quickly into an environment that paddlers are sometimes not ready for and this can lead to drop out from the sport.
- Contrary to popular opinion, the re-instatement of promotion only at the end of season would not hold people back. Under the old system many of the top ranked performers in Division 1 broke straight into the top 20 in premier due to the experience they had gained in learning to win races at Division 1 level.
- Learning to win is an important part of long term paddler development, particularly those that may end up representing Great Britain. The proposed system will actually teach people to be winners in a consistent sense with valuable experience gained in a div 1 environment. Under the current system, there are paddlers who have progressed through the system who get to premier and may never have won a race and all of a sudden they are in premier coming in the bottom half – paddlers need to be motivated to participate and a firm ‘apprenticehip’ in Division 1 will give them the skills required in Premier.
- There is a different pressure upon paddlers when going for wins and the psychological experience gained in division 1 is valuable in preparing people to perform at the highest level in Premier.
- The system of in season promotion creates an unstable environment over the season which makes it hard for paddlers to set a benchmark. As people get promoted out of division 1 through the season, the division technically becomes easier to win later on in the season. This does not promote a consistent level of performer into the premier division which should remain as the highest level in our sport.
- This would also allow paddlers to compete in more than one class again which would improve them as overall paddlers and assist in allowing them to be the best that they can be.
In summary, the proposal to re-instate end of season promotion only to Division 1 (K1M, C1M, K1W) comes in order to best prepare paddlers for their long term development as this creates genuine competition and the ability for paddlers to learn to win and perform consistently under pressure so that upon promotion to Premier they will enjoy the experience and continue to participate in our sport.
I would urge you to support this motion for the long term development and retention of paddlers in our sport.
Could there not be room for compromise?
Say keep the three wins and up part, but then have end of season promotion for the rest of the paddlers, this would allow the exceptional paddlers to progress and still ristrict the amount of paddlers that can get up in one season (max of 5 with 17 races). Then allow a subjective amount of paddlers to go up on end of season promotions usually looking for a reasonable break in points I would suggest 4600/4500 would have been a good number this year, both with fair sized gaps allowing 2 in season promotions and either 12(4600) or 15(4500) end of season promotions.
Obviously if more paddlers remain in the division for the whole season this points total for the remaining athletes would be higher but this can only be seen once the results are in at the end of the season. I was in Div 1 before in season promotions were introduced and we all knew that the slalom committee would be looking for a reasonable break in the points to determine the amount of paddlers who got promoted. If anyone has a 1998 /99 or 2000 yearbook perhaps they could share that with us, mine are packed in storage at my parents!
It would seem to me that taking inseason promotion away would have made a very very boaring and frustrating year for most of the upcoming athletes this season if they were forced to compete against a former british champion of a whole season with, as the first three races of this season showed, no chance of winning what so ever. Rogue demotions will always occur and taking away the chance for these exceptions to advace will destroy the confidence of young athletes and reduce the motivation for older ones!
So i would like to see a third option put forward which removes in season promotion on points but does allow for the winner of three races to be promoted, and to bring back end of season promotions for those left in the division at the end of the season.
Say keep the three wins and up part, but then have end of season promotion for the rest of the paddlers, this would allow the exceptional paddlers to progress and still ristrict the amount of paddlers that can get up in one season (max of 5 with 17 races). Then allow a subjective amount of paddlers to go up on end of season promotions usually looking for a reasonable break in points I would suggest 4600/4500 would have been a good number this year, both with fair sized gaps allowing 2 in season promotions and either 12(4600) or 15(4500) end of season promotions.
Obviously if more paddlers remain in the division for the whole season this points total for the remaining athletes would be higher but this can only be seen once the results are in at the end of the season. I was in Div 1 before in season promotions were introduced and we all knew that the slalom committee would be looking for a reasonable break in the points to determine the amount of paddlers who got promoted. If anyone has a 1998 /99 or 2000 yearbook perhaps they could share that with us, mine are packed in storage at my parents!
It would seem to me that taking inseason promotion away would have made a very very boaring and frustrating year for most of the upcoming athletes this season if they were forced to compete against a former british champion of a whole season with, as the first three races of this season showed, no chance of winning what so ever. Rogue demotions will always occur and taking away the chance for these exceptions to advace will destroy the confidence of young athletes and reduce the motivation for older ones!
So i would like to see a third option put forward which removes in season promotion on points but does allow for the winner of three races to be promoted, and to bring back end of season promotions for those left in the division at the end of the season.
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RussJohnson
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:19 pm
- Location: Wakefield
- Contact:
this would make prem near on exclusive.
those who get demoted from prem will more that likely win a large majority of the races in Div 1 and hence be the ones to get re-promoted at the season.
only a few paddlers would be able to challenge this and get promoted.
those who get demoted from prem will more that likely win a large majority of the races in Div 1 and hence be the ones to get re-promoted at the season.
only a few paddlers would be able to challenge this and get promoted.
Russell Johnson
HALIFAX Canoe Club - West Yorkshire Canoe Club
HALIFAX Canoe Club - West Yorkshire Canoe Club
I can't comment on the old system as I was not involved in that but this one seems to me that it would demoralise everyone?
Those with lots of points will be demoralised because a) they are not progressing and b) because if they continue to compete they are paying £26 for the "privilege" of competing knowing that they have already been promoted so are only really paying for a trophy!
The rest of the division will be demoralised because they will be thinking here comes "x", they will win again, "y" will come second again and "z" will come third, what is the point i.e. they are not progressing either...
The girls that have been promoted this year were the ones expected to be promoted and that have worked hard for promotion. Looking at the points they have had once in Prem they seem to be holding their own up there so why shouldn't they be there?
Those with lots of points will be demoralised because a) they are not progressing and b) because if they continue to compete they are paying £26 for the "privilege" of competing knowing that they have already been promoted so are only really paying for a trophy!
The rest of the division will be demoralised because they will be thinking here comes "x", they will win again, "y" will come second again and "z" will come third, what is the point i.e. they are not progressing either...
The girls that have been promoted this year were the ones expected to be promoted and that have worked hard for promotion. Looking at the points they have had once in Prem they seem to be holding their own up there so why shouldn't they be there?
I agree with the idea of end of season promotion.
In the olden days, when I was in div 1 (I got up to prem the first year of in season promotion and probably shouldn't have done, I don't think I was ready, but all of the big guns had gone with 3 races to go...), most of the issues that people are talking about were non-issues. It was a very rare occurence for one person to completely dominate the season and win most of the races.
I raced in div 1 for about 8 or 9 years and wasn't put off by not getting up, I eventually realised I needed to train harder having been in the top 20 of div 1 for at least 7 of those years and not getting up. Speaking to paddlers who won Division 1, having been "held back", non felt agrieved and the opportunity to win div 1 was taken as a massive achievement and was something to strive for.
I can rememeber some epic seasons when Simon Jackson and James Hounslow battled it out for the whole year, Craig Morris and Mark Ratcliffe, Gordon Duff, Dan Cooke and Campbell Walsh. Ian Davison, Tim Baillie and Barry Paton. All of these were mint seasons of racing and I doubt any of the paddlers would disagree. Should we compile a list of opinions of these people and ask if they felt that their progression in the sport was stunted by remaining in the division another year.
There are issues with good prem paddlers getting demoted, but looking at the current position, that's not much better. Due to paddlers going up mid-season, and the long term plan for paddler numbers in prem, quite a few paddlers are going to get demoted to keep the numbers in check. Some of these paddlers in danger of the drop have been consistently ahead of most of the newly promoted paddlers...
I agree taht having a rule for the very dominant paddlers to go back up to deal with the potential of the likes of Anton, Zach and Steve Briggs to get back up. I doubt there will be many current div 1 paddlers who'll beat these. Are Ciaran and Sam Critchley out of the danger zone?
On a sellfish note, prem results at the end of the year are worth more. With in season promotion, prem results are skewed towards the end of the year as the newly promoted paddlers have had little impact at the top end, yet results are calculated based on having beaten them. Why should a sixth place at the end of the year have more value than at the beginning of the year? You're still racing against the same group of peers regardless of results?
That's my input anyway!
Nicky
In the olden days, when I was in div 1 (I got up to prem the first year of in season promotion and probably shouldn't have done, I don't think I was ready, but all of the big guns had gone with 3 races to go...), most of the issues that people are talking about were non-issues. It was a very rare occurence for one person to completely dominate the season and win most of the races.
I raced in div 1 for about 8 or 9 years and wasn't put off by not getting up, I eventually realised I needed to train harder having been in the top 20 of div 1 for at least 7 of those years and not getting up. Speaking to paddlers who won Division 1, having been "held back", non felt agrieved and the opportunity to win div 1 was taken as a massive achievement and was something to strive for.
I can rememeber some epic seasons when Simon Jackson and James Hounslow battled it out for the whole year, Craig Morris and Mark Ratcliffe, Gordon Duff, Dan Cooke and Campbell Walsh. Ian Davison, Tim Baillie and Barry Paton. All of these were mint seasons of racing and I doubt any of the paddlers would disagree. Should we compile a list of opinions of these people and ask if they felt that their progression in the sport was stunted by remaining in the division another year.
There are issues with good prem paddlers getting demoted, but looking at the current position, that's not much better. Due to paddlers going up mid-season, and the long term plan for paddler numbers in prem, quite a few paddlers are going to get demoted to keep the numbers in check. Some of these paddlers in danger of the drop have been consistently ahead of most of the newly promoted paddlers...
I agree taht having a rule for the very dominant paddlers to go back up to deal with the potential of the likes of Anton, Zach and Steve Briggs to get back up. I doubt there will be many current div 1 paddlers who'll beat these. Are Ciaran and Sam Critchley out of the danger zone?
On a sellfish note, prem results at the end of the year are worth more. With in season promotion, prem results are skewed towards the end of the year as the newly promoted paddlers have had little impact at the top end, yet results are calculated based on having beaten them. Why should a sixth place at the end of the year have more value than at the beginning of the year? You're still racing against the same group of peers regardless of results?
That's my input anyway!
Nicky
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Nick Penfold
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm
A bit of background might come in handy.
Just as, today, a proportion of paddlers in Div 4 gets promotion at a single event, promotion as far as Div 1 used to go to the top paddlers in a single race - 1 in 40 from 2 to 1, 1 in 20 from 3 to 2. A fast paddler could get up the divisions like a rat up a drainpipe - and on the less technical courses they needed speed but very little technique. The gateway to Prem had to be tight, or we would have had some seriously incompetent people on dangerously big water.
In 1998 we introduced points-based promotion, since refined a bit. Points-based promotion means that no-one goes up on the basis of a single flukey result. Everyone gets more of an apprenticeship division by division, with a minimum of 3 races and usually a good many more in each.
By 2001 points-based promotion was tried and tested, and the AGM had the confidence to apply it to promotion to Prem.
Just as, today, a proportion of paddlers in Div 4 gets promotion at a single event, promotion as far as Div 1 used to go to the top paddlers in a single race - 1 in 40 from 2 to 1, 1 in 20 from 3 to 2. A fast paddler could get up the divisions like a rat up a drainpipe - and on the less technical courses they needed speed but very little technique. The gateway to Prem had to be tight, or we would have had some seriously incompetent people on dangerously big water.
In 1998 we introduced points-based promotion, since refined a bit. Points-based promotion means that no-one goes up on the basis of a single flukey result. Everyone gets more of an apprenticeship division by division, with a minimum of 3 races and usually a good many more in each.
By 2001 points-based promotion was tried and tested, and the AGM had the confidence to apply it to promotion to Prem.
It seems to me, that this issue keeps coming up!
Being raised by high profile proffesionals and members of our sport, high profile club/s and volunteers working for our sport, and supported by high ranked junior and senior, paddlers within our sport. It has been raised in a different context each year, and each year it is rebuffed or rebuked as unnecessary! My Question: Who has such a vested interest in the decision that was made back in 2001, that they must still hold on to the notion that there isn't a BETTER system?! It may not be the OLD system or the CURRENT one, but that perhaps a compromise may indeed be the WIN-WIN for all parties!
Esentially, it is the increasing in difficulty of the CURRENT system to get promoted, or the Addition of a premise in the OLD system, to allow for the Craig Morris' of the World, who managed to narrowly miss promotion and then win the first 4 races, it was though and this interesting, a show down between him and Mark Ratcliffe that entertained so much in this thrilling Div1 season, and took Craig Many more races than was first assumed to get his next win.
If you increase the difficulty to get promoted from Div 1, you increase the level of Prem , the level of Div1 and the ability of the individual Racer too. By increasing the promotion level, those who currently sit in the middle of Prem will have to go further if they don't want to be over taken and moved down into Div 1 by the paddlers promoted at the end of year.
I myself was promoted end of Season, all the way back in 2000, the system gave me two great full years of racing around 13/14 races per year, in those days, it didn't do me any harm, I was there trying to cut it just as i am now at the higher end of Prem. As argued there are also those who do well using Div1-Prem End of season promotion, i am a good example and in my first race in prem, scored 743 points. This means the skills from Div 1 are no less worthy than the skills from Prem, they still gave me both the belief and desire to perform, but it would be interesting to know how many inseason promotees would achieve such a high first Prem Result, or a high ranking by the end of the year, and i was not the highest by any means, from my cohourt of promotees.
Ultimately, it seems a different group of people each year call for change, and in each case the same people stand up to defend it. Why not look for a compromise, where there is a WIN for All parties, simply a get out claus in either of the rules would suffice, which caters for the exceptionally gifted developing paddler or the talented but demoted premier paddler.:rock:
Being raised by high profile proffesionals and members of our sport, high profile club/s and volunteers working for our sport, and supported by high ranked junior and senior, paddlers within our sport. It has been raised in a different context each year, and each year it is rebuffed or rebuked as unnecessary! My Question: Who has such a vested interest in the decision that was made back in 2001, that they must still hold on to the notion that there isn't a BETTER system?! It may not be the OLD system or the CURRENT one, but that perhaps a compromise may indeed be the WIN-WIN for all parties!
Esentially, it is the increasing in difficulty of the CURRENT system to get promoted, or the Addition of a premise in the OLD system, to allow for the Craig Morris' of the World, who managed to narrowly miss promotion and then win the first 4 races, it was though and this interesting, a show down between him and Mark Ratcliffe that entertained so much in this thrilling Div1 season, and took Craig Many more races than was first assumed to get his next win.
If you increase the difficulty to get promoted from Div 1, you increase the level of Prem , the level of Div1 and the ability of the individual Racer too. By increasing the promotion level, those who currently sit in the middle of Prem will have to go further if they don't want to be over taken and moved down into Div 1 by the paddlers promoted at the end of year.
I myself was promoted end of Season, all the way back in 2000, the system gave me two great full years of racing around 13/14 races per year, in those days, it didn't do me any harm, I was there trying to cut it just as i am now at the higher end of Prem. As argued there are also those who do well using Div1-Prem End of season promotion, i am a good example and in my first race in prem, scored 743 points. This means the skills from Div 1 are no less worthy than the skills from Prem, they still gave me both the belief and desire to perform, but it would be interesting to know how many inseason promotees would achieve such a high first Prem Result, or a high ranking by the end of the year, and i was not the highest by any means, from my cohourt of promotees.
Ultimately, it seems a different group of people each year call for change, and in each case the same people stand up to defend it. Why not look for a compromise, where there is a WIN for All parties, simply a get out claus in either of the rules would suffice, which caters for the exceptionally gifted developing paddler or the talented but demoted premier paddler.:rock:
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roodthomas
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:33 pm
- Location: Barnsley
Having been promoted from div 1 to prem this season . . . I think that it is important to keep the system as it is! Yes it does mean that racing at the top end of div 1 gets easier as the season progresses, I experienced that all be it in the first half of the season. I would have been promoted on either system regardless as the people that went before me would not have turned up to the latter races, so in a sense racing would have become easier anyway!
The important thing is to allow the top end div 1 the opportunity in prem as they are ready for it! There would be no point going to other races if you had won the first 3 for example and then what would have happened? The frustration of waiting could put a lot of people off as they became less motivated throughout the season, therefore meaning that they weren't ready for prem at the beginning of next season.
There are advantages to both systems! But surely the current one is more beneficial to those wanting to excel in prem! Having had 2 bad races and 1 ok race in prem i have been able to experience racing at this level. I havent been disheartened because my times were good and I won't be demoted (just a couple of sketchy gates that passed me by) . . . meaning I'm fired up for next season because I have something to prove!!
The important thing is to allow the top end div 1 the opportunity in prem as they are ready for it! There would be no point going to other races if you had won the first 3 for example and then what would have happened? The frustration of waiting could put a lot of people off as they became less motivated throughout the season, therefore meaning that they weren't ready for prem at the beginning of next season.
There are advantages to both systems! But surely the current one is more beneficial to those wanting to excel in prem! Having had 2 bad races and 1 ok race in prem i have been able to experience racing at this level. I havent been disheartened because my times were good and I won't be demoted (just a couple of sketchy gates that passed me by) . . . meaning I'm fired up for next season because I have something to prove!!
With regard to people being demotivated and not racing anymore, when the old system was in place, this was never the case. People had an intermediary aim of striving to win Div 1. This was a big achievement and was a great acolade in canoe slalom. It was not the case that I've won a few races, so will go up anyway. Racing was usually tight and many paddlers raced every div 1 race.
What is this big thing about being in prem a couple of months earlier, when you can race at more races and improve your racing before having to perform in prem. From a mid season promotion to prem, you might get few prem races. Alternatively, race in div 1 with more peers of a similar standard at more races under more pressure to maintain/improve your end of season ranking. You had to work all year to go up, nit just get a few decent results early on and rest on your previous success...
I agree that having a system that a truly exceptional paddler can get back up mid season is not a bad idea, but I think that racing a season in div 1 will not have a negative impact on a paddlers career...
Many a newly promoted paddler would go into their first prem race with a 7-800 points score, the idea of this nowadays is highly unusual.
What is this big thing about being in prem a couple of months earlier, when you can race at more races and improve your racing before having to perform in prem. From a mid season promotion to prem, you might get few prem races. Alternatively, race in div 1 with more peers of a similar standard at more races under more pressure to maintain/improve your end of season ranking. You had to work all year to go up, nit just get a few decent results early on and rest on your previous success...
I agree that having a system that a truly exceptional paddler can get back up mid season is not a bad idea, but I think that racing a season in div 1 will not have a negative impact on a paddlers career...
Many a newly promoted paddler would go into their first prem race with a 7-800 points score, the idea of this nowadays is highly unusual.
The focus is very much on the K1M, which might not be applicable for the K1W.
Looking at the K1W Div 1 paddlers, a group went up mid season and the rest on the final two races of the season. I don’t personally see what’s wrong with that. Those paddlers who went up mid-season have done well in the Premier division, proving they deserve to be there. Those who went up at the end of the season did so because they developed and improved through out the season, so they are also worthy of being in the Premier division for next season.
The aim of any paddler is to get to the Premier division and test themselves against the best. If a division 1 paddler is good enough to get 5 top 3 finishes, then they deserve to be in the Premier Division – regardless of when they achieve this.
Maybe a compromise is that a new rule is added, such that 3 of the scoring 5 results which result in promotion have to be on HPP, Grandtully, Tryweryn ?
Looking at the K1W Div 1 paddlers, a group went up mid season and the rest on the final two races of the season. I don’t personally see what’s wrong with that. Those paddlers who went up mid-season have done well in the Premier division, proving they deserve to be there. Those who went up at the end of the season did so because they developed and improved through out the season, so they are also worthy of being in the Premier division for next season.
The aim of any paddler is to get to the Premier division and test themselves against the best. If a division 1 paddler is good enough to get 5 top 3 finishes, then they deserve to be in the Premier Division – regardless of when they achieve this.
Maybe a compromise is that a new rule is added, such that 3 of the scoring 5 results which result in promotion have to be on HPP, Grandtully, Tryweryn ?
Adding more complexities, does any future system no favours. The addition of race location requirements is a non-starter, it would not be helpful or easy to instigate, and what happens when cardiff, tees and broxbourne come online do we change the rule each time, or add more places..... simply put by having a FULL season in Div 1, or even more than 1 season, you will HAVE to have raced at these places!! Thus improving the paddlers ability and the paddler will have raced MORE often, in competitive competitions. (as there are 17 Div1 races, and only 9 Prem races).
With relation to earlier comments made, about the 'Exclusivity of Prem, if end of season promotion was re-introduced, as Prem paddlers would go down and stop Div1 paddlers getting up!'
Sorry to point it out, but that simply means that the PREM paddlers are BETTER, and the DIV 1 paddlers who are unable to go up, are not ready or not good enough yet, given time, more races, more seasons, they would be. This system strengthens Div 1, and hence strengthens Prem, and hence strengthens the SPORT!!! Our ultimate aim, is to improve the SPORT, and those performing in it.
Lastly, In reference to those who believe that funding is related to divisional status, i'm afraid that is only a short sighted and immediate view of those who are currently looking for support, the reality is support levels have always, and will always be adjusted to include the numbers that the SPORT can afford to support. FUNDING is not RELATED to how good paddlers are today, or this year; it is SIMPLY related to THE NUMBER of paddlers that can be supported in any ONE season. Standards have slowly been improving in junior levels for the last 3 or 4 years due to the amount of support that has been put in at lower/grass routes levels, this is related in the main to the number of proffesional coaches who have been PAID to develop, nuture and spot TALENT in younger Juniors and then develop the levels and type of training they do. *(incidently this has had a number of good and BAD factors; namely, that the training levels expected of seniors was similarly reproduced in juniors who were still developing and there was/is a worry and certainly observations made, that linked INJURIES to the training and racing that young paddlers were doing before they were ready).
The point is the current cut off levels for support are set, on the current system and any future funding will be set/based on the system inplace on that day/week/month/year and the amount of money it costs to support a paddler and the amount of funding the governing bodies designate to be used for performance sport.
Lastly, in support of Nicky, Winning the Division 1 championship, used to be a MAJOR success in the sport.It relied on consistently high performances across the whole year, and there are almost NO incidences of 5 races being won in a Div 1 season by one individual, this is because the racing is tight and close, because there ends up with a number of very good competitors all racing hard to WIN.
In principle, the Top Div 1 is still given an award, but in reality, there is very little competition for this, and in most cases it is the person promoted first who gets the highest ranking in PREM, which means the entire Div1 competition comes down to the first few races, and not the season as a whole, what about anyone injured/ill at the start of the season, or those who improve rapidly through the beginning of the season. We want the best Div1, to be the person who gets the award, but this is by no means guarunteed with the current system.
When assessing any future system, it must be looked at subjectively, with the SPORT's interest and development in mind, this is hard to do for all parties. On a personal note, it even split our club committee last year, due to the immediate effect it would have on their own paddling ofspring and hence the entitlement to support they would be likely to have. But its important to remember the the major goal is not to stop people, change things unnecessarily, slow paddlers progression or make the sport more expensive; it is to make the SPORT more accessible to paddlers and their TEAM of supporters, outsiders and their interest in what we do, and lastly but perhaps most importantly of all, it is to have paddlers capable of WINNING medals at all GB levels, but especially WORLD and OLYMPIC levels.
Surely any advice we can take from those people working to put GB paddlers on podiums across the globe, should be taken VERY SERIOUSLY, as they do know and understand, the applications and requirements of ELITE PERFORMERS in our fantastic SPORT. ???
With relation to earlier comments made, about the 'Exclusivity of Prem, if end of season promotion was re-introduced, as Prem paddlers would go down and stop Div1 paddlers getting up!'
Sorry to point it out, but that simply means that the PREM paddlers are BETTER, and the DIV 1 paddlers who are unable to go up, are not ready or not good enough yet, given time, more races, more seasons, they would be. This system strengthens Div 1, and hence strengthens Prem, and hence strengthens the SPORT!!! Our ultimate aim, is to improve the SPORT, and those performing in it.
Lastly, In reference to those who believe that funding is related to divisional status, i'm afraid that is only a short sighted and immediate view of those who are currently looking for support, the reality is support levels have always, and will always be adjusted to include the numbers that the SPORT can afford to support. FUNDING is not RELATED to how good paddlers are today, or this year; it is SIMPLY related to THE NUMBER of paddlers that can be supported in any ONE season. Standards have slowly been improving in junior levels for the last 3 or 4 years due to the amount of support that has been put in at lower/grass routes levels, this is related in the main to the number of proffesional coaches who have been PAID to develop, nuture and spot TALENT in younger Juniors and then develop the levels and type of training they do. *(incidently this has had a number of good and BAD factors; namely, that the training levels expected of seniors was similarly reproduced in juniors who were still developing and there was/is a worry and certainly observations made, that linked INJURIES to the training and racing that young paddlers were doing before they were ready).
The point is the current cut off levels for support are set, on the current system and any future funding will be set/based on the system inplace on that day/week/month/year and the amount of money it costs to support a paddler and the amount of funding the governing bodies designate to be used for performance sport.
Lastly, in support of Nicky, Winning the Division 1 championship, used to be a MAJOR success in the sport.It relied on consistently high performances across the whole year, and there are almost NO incidences of 5 races being won in a Div 1 season by one individual, this is because the racing is tight and close, because there ends up with a number of very good competitors all racing hard to WIN.
In principle, the Top Div 1 is still given an award, but in reality, there is very little competition for this, and in most cases it is the person promoted first who gets the highest ranking in PREM, which means the entire Div1 competition comes down to the first few races, and not the season as a whole, what about anyone injured/ill at the start of the season, or those who improve rapidly through the beginning of the season. We want the best Div1, to be the person who gets the award, but this is by no means guarunteed with the current system.
When assessing any future system, it must be looked at subjectively, with the SPORT's interest and development in mind, this is hard to do for all parties. On a personal note, it even split our club committee last year, due to the immediate effect it would have on their own paddling ofspring and hence the entitlement to support they would be likely to have. But its important to remember the the major goal is not to stop people, change things unnecessarily, slow paddlers progression or make the sport more expensive; it is to make the SPORT more accessible to paddlers and their TEAM of supporters, outsiders and their interest in what we do, and lastly but perhaps most importantly of all, it is to have paddlers capable of WINNING medals at all GB levels, but especially WORLD and OLYMPIC levels.
Surely any advice we can take from those people working to put GB paddlers on podiums across the globe, should be taken VERY SERIOUSLY, as they do know and understand, the applications and requirements of ELITE PERFORMERS in our fantastic SPORT. ???
I feel that I really must take issue with this statement. A division 2 paddler should have more than the skills necessary to handle the big water, have you ever seen the plastic boaters going down the Tryweryn or HPP? The only thing missing is the experience to do it well, and no amount of racing around on flat water is going to make any difference to that.Nick Penfold wrote:The gateway to Prem had to be tight, or we would have had some seriously incompetent people on dangerously big water.
Also you can't consider any UK slalom site as "dangerously big". Someone takes a swim and they get fished out, the only significant risk is to the equipment.
[Lastly, In reference to those who believe that funding is related to divisional status, i'm afraid that is only a short sighted and immediate view of those who are currently looking for support]
Have support thanks! - part of squad inclusion here (I confess to not knowing how the English system works) depends on performance and which division you are in at what age. That is the reality NOT merely a belief.
Have support thanks! - part of squad inclusion here (I confess to not knowing how the English system works) depends on performance and which division you are in at what age. That is the reality NOT merely a belief.