Higher or lower division event first ?

[katonas]

When single day prem events are put on a weekend with a div1 on the other day, which should come first ?

Number of paddling judges (NUMBERS BELOW) is always lower on the Sunday compared to the Saturday regardless of whether the Prem event is first or second.

This yr there were 2 events with div1 on Sat, prem on Sun:
Graveyard Sat 52, Sun 19 paddling judges
Tees Sat 42, Sun 14 paddling judges
and 2 in 2006
Tees Sat 28, Sun 18 paddling judges
Tryweryn Sat 51, Sun 7 paddling judges

This yr there were 2 events with Prem on Sat, div1 on Sun:
HPP Sat 34, Sun 32 paddling judges
Llangollen Sat 29, Sun 23 paddling judges

Conclusion: Prem on Sat, Div1 on Sun leads to a more equal number of paddling judges on both days with an increased number on Sunday. Also the greatest number of div1 paddlers are stretching themselves on the more difficult Prem course. It seems those in a higher division are more motivated to stay on Sunday and do judge's runs.

I would expect the same principle could be applied to div1/2 combined weekends where each division is on a different day (discussion does not apply if both races held on the same day)

This yr there were 2 events with div2 on Sat, div1 on Sun:
Shepperton Sat 33, Sun 12 paddling judges
HPP Sat 48, Sun 23 paddling judges

There were no events with div1 on Sat, div2 on Sun which seems strange given the above, as you would expect a higher number of judges on Sunday, and the highest number of div2 paddlers experiencing a div1 course. In the case of HPP it would have given more div2 paddlers a chance to practice at HPP, who need the practice on such a course more than div1 paddlers.

I believe every attempt should be made to minimise the number of single day/single division events.

[davebrads]

I don't think that the Prem event should be held the day after the Div 1 event unless the course has been radically changed, which is not feasible at most courses. Otherwise it makes a nonsense of the no practice rule for Prem paddlers.

[66-1146487544]

I would take this a stage further and suggest that this requires a rule change to stop organisers running Prem races on the Sunday unless they are prepared to alter the 'positions' of at least 50% of the gates between the two days - and by position I don't mean just switching the colours of two gates.

Any club want to second this?

[Ray]

Number of paddling judges (NUMBERS BELOW) is always lower on the Sunday compared to the Saturday regardless of whether the Prem event is first or second.

This yr there were 2 events with div1 on Sat, prem on Sun:
Graveyard Sat 52, Sun 19 paddling judges
Tees Sat 42, Sun 14 paddling judges
and 2 in 2006
Tees Sat 28, Sun 18 paddling judges
Tryweryn Sat 51, Sun 7 paddling judges

This yr there were 2 events with Prem on Sat, div1 on Sun:
HPP Sat 34, Sun 32 paddling judges
Llangollen Sat 29, Sun 23 paddling judges

Conclusion: Prem on Sat, Div1 on Sun leads to a more equal number of paddling judges on both days with an increased number on Sunday. Also the greatest number of div1 paddlers are stretching themselves on the more difficult Prem course. It seems those in a higher division are more motivated to stay on Sunday and do judge's runs.

It should be noted that the P/1 and 1/P numbers as stated above are misleading as there are other factors which would affect judging numbers on several of those weekends:

The Graveyard Prem this year was also a J16 selection event so it is possible that there were Prems judging on Saturday purely as they were going for selection on Sunday and certainly on Sunday there were 23 non-Prems who raced selection, who might otherwise have judged.

The same situation pertained in 2006 for the Graveyard.

The organisers for Tees this year, as I understand it, closed entries a fortnight before the event. This may have drastically reduced the number of div 1s attending as I suspect Prems may be better at getting their entries in on time. Certainly 42 for K1M is a low turn out for a Tees div 1.

HPP this year was also a Pan-Celtic event.

Llangollen was originally a 2 day Prem event with heats/semis/final. One can thus imagine that many Prems intended attending both days for this event and so, after it had changed to a single day event, decided to stay and judge as they had booked accommodation anyway!

Given these additional factors, the conclusion stated above is not justified

[katonas]

Even supposing such 'mights' and 'mays' influenced numbers significantly, it does not prove the counter-argument of a prem race on sunday / div1 on saturday leading to more judges on Sunday. The number of judges on Saturday never seems to fall too low.

Numbers can always be misleading, but human nature can to some extent be predicted. One would expect the most motivated paddlers who have the fewest number of ranking races, to be prepared to do more judges runs. Perhaps it is coincidence the numbers seem to support this idea.

If one concedes that number of judges is higher on Saturday regardless of event order, surely it is better for the progression of the sport, for the highest number of lower division paddlers to be testing themselves on a more difficult course.

Currently a div1 paddler who attends his/her first race at HPP or the Graveyard (even with a few practice runs) is woefully unfamiliar with the course compared to any Prem paddler.

Who has the highest need to have lots of practice the day before their race?