2017 Selection qualification races?

[AndrewG]

Having seen the draft calendar for 2017 and the IP statement re qualification for 2017 selection I was wondering whether the "2 Races in 2017 (To be confirmed by 1 Jan 2017)" can be confirmed now as Llandysul + Tully as these are the only 2 races to take place before the Selection race in 2017.
However I do notice that LLandysul may not be taking place until after selection.
What would happen if that were the case?
You could obviously use both races at Tully but I presume that this would not be the first choice for most.
Would it not be better to use an additional 2016 race, either one that has already taken place or the one that is still to take place: Tees?

[Slapdash Sal]

Or British Open?

[AndrewG]

Or Tully, or Cardiff or HPP 03/09

[CeeBee]

or just allow anyone in premier to enter? Are wild cards really necessary? Most people will not race selection unless they think they have a chance either this year or in the next couple of years. If the numbers need to be managed, then allow any premier paddler who has finished in the top X (say somewhere between 5 or 10) at any prem race in the required age group to enter selection.

so if 4th at a premier race, you are in top X so can are selection.
If you are 7th at a premier race but 4th U23 (including U23 and juniors), you are in the top X so can race selection
If you are 12th at a premier race but 4th J18, you are in the top X so can race selection.

All premier races would be included.

And find independent course designers who are not coaching some of the paddlers going for selection. At this year's selection, according to several conversations overhead on the riverbank and changing room, some of the moves in the course had been practised and timed by those using Lee Valley regularly.

[HPPaddle]

I agree about independent course designers. The same was said by many people of the Tully course design.

[AndrewG]

Can you hijack your own post?

Might be naive of me, but not sure I totally agree with the suspicion that selection courses are being systematically practiced.
Is it not more likely that some paddlers based at HPP/Tully/LV etc, who paddle almost exclusively at one venue, have spent so much time there that after a period of time they must have practiced almost every move possible?
This makes it more likely that site A based paddlers will do better at site A and site B/C based paddlers will do less well at site A (waits for John S to provide stats to support/refute this).

The only thing that concerns me is that we have moved away from the selection races at multiple venues, which may have previously evened out this "home" advantage issue.
My view is that the home advantage at LV is slightly more than at other sites as it is much harder for most slalom paddlers to get regular access to LV compared to say HPP.
Imagine if someone lived half way between LV and HPP and was not a full time athlete: chances are they would paddle more regularly at HPP than LV (I do have statistics to support this - sample size = 1)

I imagine that it depends on what the talent program wants to achieve.
If you want paddlers to come through to GB juniors/U23/senior level that can get results on the best water we have in the UK then, over time, this will be achieved.
Already in 2016, of the 8 Junior paddlers that went to the Worlds, 5 of them were either from the England Southern Region or already on PPP i.e. had the potential for more access to LV than most.
Will be interesting to see how this develops over time: could be the start of a (re?)-surgence of the England Southern Region after many comments in the past on this forum bemoaning the England Southern Region as being the poor relative of Slalom in England.

[SilverSurfer]

This is not a new issue, it has been an issue ever since British Canoeing had to defend the legacy of 2012 by moving everything south to LV. Sadly, it's the paddlers who have suffered as a result.

There is no denying LV is excellent water, and deemed to be the best in the world by many. However, access to quality water time for slalom paddlers is extremely poor unless you are a LV based paddler - giving them a massive advantage.

Holding junior selection at LV is ludicrous and to some extent U23 when you consider the venus the Junior/U23 championships are held at. Venues such as HPP, Cardiff, Tryweryn and GrandTully are much more appropriate. Furthermore, they are venues accessible to all, and spread home advantage across nations. The "old" format of selection was good enough for those on the senior team today, so why not the junior paddlers of today. I can think of no other reason than the politics of justifying the expense of LV post 2012 Olympics.

Sadly, not enough paddlers/parents have raised their concerns to the International Panel, and until they do so, selection will continue to be held at LV. The impact being the chance of making a GB team will diminish year on year for those who don't have access to LV. The reality is LV is a commercial rafting centre, so water access will always be a problem for the masses wanting quality water time with slalom gates out.

As to the original post, pre selection is pointless, why is there pre-selection for Senior and U23 but not juniors. Pre-selection only came about when selection moved to LV, prior to that selection was held at different venues, running alongside a Prem race, but anyone could enter. Last year juniors could only enter selection if they were in Prem, why ? One would like to think the Canoe Slalom Committee do work with the International Panel, but given the question raised by Andrew clearly not.

If you want change then raise your concerns with the International Panel - otherwise accept what your given, which for 2017 is 3 consecutive days of selection races at LV.

[CeeBee]

I agree about independent course designers. The same was said by many people of the Tully course design.

I would agree that a couple of years ago some of the moves on the Tully course had been practised as one of the course designers was one of the Scottish coaches who had been training their paddlers all week and set very similar moves to those his paddlers had been training on.

It is not that the entire course was being practised at Lee Valley in advance, it was 2 particular set moves on the course that paddlers had practised. The stagger sequence gates 1-3 at Lee Valley last year had been timed by those in training and so one of the paddlers said 'I knew to do it as a spin and how tight to turn as we'd done this and been timed in training'.

Chris Baillie, Neil Caffrey, Johnny Brown have always defended the position that for Juniors, the races should be held at multiple venues across the country so that selection is fair. This has been argued to the International Panel and I would hope it can still be raised with British Canoeing Slalom committee. I did consider raising a motion to the AGM but didn't know if this would be an eligible motion.

I would also have thought that any selection course at Lee Valley in 2017 is likely to be set for Senior Paddlers putting the Junior paddlers at a disadvantage. 3 days of racing on Lee Valley is physically very demanding for Juniors, particularly girls. Is it too late for Junior Selection to be spread across multiple venues?

The argument I have heard against Grandtully is that the water level is variable as it is a natural river. So the race at Grantully could be run as either best run if the water level on the day was consistent but if the water level changes hugely between runs, then both runs could be counted individually towards selection. Yes, there is home advantage for Scotland for Grandtully but the water level varies all year round so it is not as advantageous as Lee Valley where some athletes have trained on exactly this water level for many months and all the selection races are being held.

Another option for Lee Valley could be that the course config i.e. the rapid blocks are not set until the weekend before the race. All selection paddlers would then all be given equal access to water time leading into the race.

[Canadian Paddler]

The ACM has no power over the International Panel

The Slalom Committee provides a chair and an observer, and that is the extent of its influence over the International Panel

The Panel reports directly to British Canoeing, so cannot be instructed, or its decisions vetoed by ACM or Slalom Committee.

So please feel free to try to influence teh IP, but do not expect the Slalom Committee to be able to do anything more than lobby.

[SilverSurfer]

Anyone with an interest in canoe slalom has an influence over the international panel, be it a paddler, parent, volunteer, home nation or the slalom committee.

However, a single voice alone is not enough to get change - many people connected to canoe slalom are not happy with the way things are being run by the International Panel, but either don't know how to raise their concerns or are afraid to due to perceived consequence. Contact details are in the Slalom Year Book.

Since selection was moved to LV for juniors, and the concept of performance and development teams, paddlers have missed out on opportunities to race at international races. Which means they don't get development opportunities, and for some it's now to late.

If you want change they speak up and be counted, otherwise accept what you have. Don't assume someone else is doing it for you.